Episode 302 with Kristen Petersen-Motan

In this episode Kendra talks with Kristen Petersen-Motan. An Interior Designer who specializes in education spaces. We talk about restroom design, the importance of sustainability and resources for being more sustainable in your material selection. We also discuss the decolonization of design and the importance of...you guessed it...Networking!

Timestamps:

Welcome: 00:35

First non- drink related question: 01:13

Schooling: 05:20

Work Experience: 15:14

The Big Questions: 47:35

The Fun Stuff: 1:27:32

Show Notes:

Show notes, links, and images from this episode can be found on our website.

Design Over Drinks is Hosted, and Edited by Kendra Shea

Produced by Kendra Shea and Simon Shea

Season 3 Graphics and Cover Art by Tano Design

Season 3 Music is by Qreepz

Email: DesignOverDrinksPod@gmail.com

Socials/ Patreon: @DesignOverDrinksPod

BlueSky: @DesignOverDrinks

Chapters

• 0:35 Welcome
• 1:13 First non-drink related question
• 5:20 Schooling
• 15:14 Work Experience
• 47:35 The Big Questions
• 1:27:32 The Fun Stuff
• 1:42:43 Outro

Transcript

Episode 302 - Kristen Petersen-Motan
===

[00:00:00] 

Kendra Shea: Hello, and welcome to Design Over Drinks. 

This is a podcast where we discuss what the hell interior designers actually do. I'm your host, Kendra Shea, a certified interior designer with 10 plus years working in residential and commercial design. 

today we're talking to my friend and fellow designer, Kristen Peterson Motan. Hi, Kristen!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Hi,


[00:00:35] Marker - Welcome
---

Kendra Shea: welcome! So, first and foremost, what are you drinking today?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I'm drinking, , still water as well as a waterloo sparkling water strawberry.

Kendra Shea: Nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yep.

Kendra Shea: is Waterloo like a regular in your house? I feel like I've seen you drinking it before.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yes. That's my like go to sparkling water brand.

Kendra Shea: Awesome. I today decided I'm doing a Lady Grey [00:01:00] tea with honey was my vibe today. I was like, tea day. It's weird. We are officially in fall. I officially am okay with fall starting. And so here is my like tea season. I feel like tea.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: totally.


[00:01:13] Marker - First non drink related question
---

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Okay. So now we got the business out of the way, let's really start going.

So, first and foremost, what inspired you to become an interior designer?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, you know, I was taking a break. , actually, so interior design is my second career. , my first was an educator. So I have a bachelor's and early childhood ed and taught five years, um, before deciding to change paths. And when I quit teaching, I really thought that I would go back to school and get a master's in education, um, maybe reading or ESL and taking a couple months off.

I learned that I did not miss working with kids, which felt like it was really important.

Kendra Shea: Just a little.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I wanted to stay in [00:02:00] education, um. So I started to think about what I was interested in. One of the things that I was really drawn to, I was thinking of about multiple things in design. I was thinking about, um, interiors.

I was thinking about graphic design and, um, urban planning as well. With interiors, I wasn't sure if there was even a job out there for me. I didn't really know what that market looked like. One of my favorite blogs at the time was the blog apartment therapy. And there, they happen to have an interior designer write a post about the difference between interior design and decorating.

Kendra Shea: Yes. Like early in, they're like early

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah,

Kendra Shea: conversation that we're still having.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right. And, um, this was, I guess, early 2014, probably, that I read that post. And I was like, that sounds really cool, like being an interior designer. , so I decided to start taking classes at Bellevue College, um, because the, you know, the first two years are priced, like, uh, Um, [00:03:00] college and I was like, well, if I don't like it, I can just start taking classes and something else.

And I took it quarter by quarter and I really. Really enjoyed it.

Kendra Shea: Nice. I love that. Uh, so what is your general philosophy on design and specifically interior design? But I think you can kind of apply that to design as a whole.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Um, I mean, one of the things that's really important to me in design is this idea of democratic design, that everybody deserves to have well, well designed spaces that design shouldn't be something that's just for the privileged. Right? Um, I design schools. I'm really, , passionate about public design. Um, yes, I, I love it. Um, and I love just being able to work with communities and get to hear from communities about what they need and what they like, , and what they would like their new building to be. Um, beyond that, I appreciate it. I'm a [00:04:00] big fan of story. I think as designers that's part of our job is really being a storyteller, right?

Um, coming up with that initial concept. , we tend to think of concept differently than architects do. Um, a lot of the architects I've worked with think of concept very spatially and interior designers tend to think of it, um, More is the story, right? Um, yeah,

Kendra Shea: we're trying to tell within a space and like, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah,

Kendra Shea: I think I, so full disclosure, everybody, we used to work together and we did a lot of the same type of work. And I agree with you. What I loved most was creating space for public use and consumption, right? Like I don't want to say we were creating third spaces because I don't think they're that, but there's some sense of like a place the community could go especially in education that is so wonderful to, to create, right?

I think it's the difference [00:05:00] between like a single person's home and like something for everybody and we love that something for everybody approach in a lot of ways.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Absolutely.

Kendra Shea: We'll talk about NAC a little bit later, but I do think the way that they do present storytelling and focus on storytelling in a lot of ways is one of the strengths, um, of the firm, for sure.


[00:05:20] Marker - Schooling
---

Kendra Shea: So we're gonna bring it back though. You graduated in 2018 from the Bellevue College, which is, I feel like most people I've talked to on the podcast are from Bellevue. Uh, I'm slowly but surely getting out to some other schools, but because we are here in Seattle, is what it is. Um, you got your BAA in interior design.

Can you talk a little bit about what the program was like for you?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: , you know, the program, so it was split up between the associates and the bachelors. You don't have to do the bachelors to do, you could just do the associates if you want. Originally, that's what I was planning on doing. [00:06:00] And then I found I loved it so much and wanted to keep going. It's really strong on concept.

I'd say, um, I feel like it really set me up for success about thinking about concept. Um, especially when I'm on a team with people who think about concept. So differently to me. Um. So that was, um, one of the big pros to that program, I

Kendra Shea: Nice. No, I think that's a good one. Uh, is there some other things that maybe they didn't prepare you for that you, now you're in the field, you've been like, that would have been super useful.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: , I'd say the technical detailing component, um, at least when I went through the program,

Kendra Shea: You are not the first to say that. Not the first.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: it was, you know, something that we could have worked more on. Um, at the same time, I think that's something that's pretty easy for firms to teach people. , and it's harder for firms to teach people how to think conceptually, right?

And they're, yeah. They're often not going to have the time or the energy to teach you how to think conceptually. Um, so [00:07:00] I'm glad that I at least got that conceptual. 

Sustainability, um, especially being a program that's right here in the Seattle area where we, um, a lot of our projects care about sustainability a lot.

So it would have been nice to have some kind of class work that talked about sustainability.

Kendra Shea: and I was only a few years ahead of you and went to a different school. And we, so I went to the now defunct art institutes and we did get sustainability, but it was like surface level. I have like one textbook. Do you know what I mean? It

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah,

Kendra Shea: an in depth understanding. It was just like, pick out sustainable finishes and you're like, yeah, but

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right.

Kendra Shea: that's very minimal.

That's kind of baseline, you know? So I agree. That's, I feel like conceptual is good often in programs, but not like conceptual, conceptual thinking about the big ideas, right? It's very much like what is your own design [00:08:00] style, but it isn't like, how is this affecting you? design as a whole.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right.

Kendra Shea: For sure. Did you have a mentor while at Bellevue?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I didn't have one particular mentor, I'd say. Um, but I think I had a lot of mentors, right? Like, certain professors were great mentors for me. Um, I think you were a great mentor

Kendra Shea: Thank you.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: , and, you know, a lot of people I met through IIDA became really good mentors for me.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I also, what I like about Bellevue, and I've you know, talk to a few of graduates at this point, is that they do do a good job of giving you a range of teachers that, kind of from different parts and aspects, so that depending on what you're interested in, you can, you have someone to talk to about that, uh, which I would say the Art Institute one isn't as good as.

We had a couple really great teachers, but you had like two people you could go to for everything, where I feel like You really, like Bellevue really does a good job with who they hire to teach [00:09:00] those, especially those upper level classes in that way.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, and several of the professors at Bellevue have, like, worked at firms in Seattle, which is really helpful, or firms, , Gehry for a number of years in L. A. Um, so, like, that was really nice because I could go to them to talk about, the firm questions I might have.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, and the connections are always really nice where it's like, especially when you're looking for internships and you're in those early years, you're like, where do I start? Because the job boards are garbage.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Well, and the, the, um, longer term internship I had, I got that because I was referred by a professor. Um,

Kendra Shea: perfect, because

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah.

Kendra Shea: is actually, you interned at Robin Chell in Seattle and you worked in the showroom at the Seattle Design Center, right?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: hmm.

Kendra Shea: Can you talk a little bit about that experience and what your internship was like?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. So the first internship was that showroom in the design center. Um, I had [00:10:00] attended an event at one of the showrooms with a classmate. And after the event was over, we were just like checking out the different showrooms and the owner of one showroom came up to us and was like, we just moved into this space

, so I helped them get moved in. Um, that internship only lasted a couple of months because they got moved in and didn't need help anymore. But then after that, maybe a month or 2 later, um, a classmate reached out to me. He was also the TA for our Revit class and he was interning at Robin Chell at the time.

And I guess he had asked our Revit instructor, Like, if she knew of anyone who would be a good fit and the instructor was like, yeah, reach out to Kristen. She'd be a good one. So, um, that was really nice to have that in. , I mean, I still had to interview, obviously.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, and I feel like I say this I'm such a broken record you have to have the skills But you're not gonna get the job without knowing people without networking without like shit [00:11:00] Like you two people can have the skills but if you have talked to somebody about your skills or somebody like That third person, that referral, that extra step is what gets you, at least the interview, right?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: hmm.

Kendra Shea: being kind of like, nope, cut off the floor. So I do think, I feel like I say that so much, but it's so true.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: I'm like, I hate to say it, but it's who you know.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Totally is who you know. Yeah.

Kendra Shea: yeah, so it seems like it was a really good experience for you because you kind of got that showroom stuff.

What did you, was it different once you went back for your official internship? Was it more kind of traditional design work or library work

Kristen Petersen-Motan: It was a lot of like. Yeah, it was a lot of library work. Very heavy with library work. Um, I mean, constantly reaching out to reps to come pick their stuff up or helping to order samples, which I have talked to some reps recently. And they're like, I remember when you were back at Robin Chell, which is really fun to have that from [00:12:00] like, 8 years ago.

Um, I also put together some, um, I did some staging did a lot of my family. So, like, model. Um, as well as just a little bit of one off kind of design studies.

Kendra Shea: Nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: was really a lot of resource library, which I think is okay. Um, the one materials class I had at Bellevue. I think it's been revamped since I took it, but it really didn't set me up for much success about materials.

Um, so working in a resource library was super helpful to just learn about everything.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. I, I feel the same way. You know, you get those classes where they'd like tell you about materiality, but until you were spec-ing it for real and like actually reaching out to reps for a specific product in a specific price point with a specific look. It is so much more work and research than in school.

Like, I remember in school, I would just like be like, Oh, I like this chair. I'll clip this photo [00:13:00] and put it up. And now it's like, no, I like this chair, but this chair isn't made by anybody in a commercial capacity. So now I either need to get it custom made and see how cheap that can be, or find something slightly similar that is commercial grade and BFMA and is safe to use, right?

Like. The things I didn't think about in that way until I was working in a resource library and supporting other interior designers, especially in hospitality. That blew my mind. Holy moly. I was like, what is happening? This is not what I thought I was doing. And I actually ended up liking it a lot more. I liked furniture specification.

I didn't realize that until this moment, actually. There was something really like, okay, this is what it looks like. Here's the dimensions. This is how big it needs to be. Here's, you know, it was very like, Organizational, which I enjoy. Um, but you're right. That internship, because I had the same, I interned at a firm and it was mostly library.

And then they were like, we need help. You know how to do CAD. You get to draw these elevations. And I was like, yes, this is the most [00:14:00] exciting day of my life. I'm out of the library. Um, but yeah, I think you're right. There's that. You. One of the best part about internships is like, Oh, this is what a firm is like, you know, this is what doing the job is like, not just, I don't make boards.

You're right.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right,

Kendra Shea: I didn't make a board outside of school until just recently.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I mean, I've made some boards that very much depends on the project. Yeah, some districts, some school districts will want to board. Some are fine. If we just do like a binder with all the finishes. Um, it really just it depends.

Kendra Shea: or like, I did a private school and they wanted boards because they needed to sell it to the board of directors, right? So, they wanted that materiality and that showing kind of what the whole thing would be. Whereas public schools often have such standards that you're just like, cool, pick from the standards.

They don't usually give you

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, standards. Yeah, they have standards or they have, you know, capital planning people who are so used to construction that, [00:15:00] um, they don't need to see everything on this beautifully organized board. Right? Like,

Kendra Shea: yeah, they just, they want to know what the finish is so they can order it in

Kristen Petersen-Motan: exactly.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, that's so real. 


[00:15:14] Marker - Work Experience
---

Kendra Shea: I think this is great because now we can kind of move into your first job, um, post, post graduation, uh, which was NAC, right? I was like, I think I know that. Um, still, still are, um, and I actually think I might've suggested you, I think you were one of the names I put in when I was like, you should look at this person.

Um, so I feel like, and you've been so good for them. I think you've been a really great addition to their interiors program, especially as somebody who it just wasn't the place for me, um, seeing the growth since I've been gone. It's like, yes. Okay. Change is happening. Slowly but surely. And that is so lovely to see.

So that's [00:16:00] my end of how you got the job. But do you want to talk a little bit about kind of getting into NAC and that process?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Sure. So, um, actually, it was funny. I remember at the, um, City Cent- or not the city center, the, um, campus center holiday party that we had in 2017, um, talking to you about, , you know, potentially at some point in the next, I was like, in the next few months, maybe I want to set up like an informational interview with NAC.

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: get my foot in the door there and meet the team and that's a place I would love to work at because I want to design schools and you were like, well, an interior designer is leaving right now.

Kendra Shea: That's right.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, I don't. You were like, I don't know when we'll be hiring, but I will let you know as soon as possible.

I know. So you sent me the job posting as soon as it was listed I applied. Um, I applied, I think I was in like my last few weeks of school, maybe last month,

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: capstone project. Um, So [00:17:00] really hadn't had the chance to like reach back out about it. But the thing that helped was that a week after I graduated, a week after I finished school, um, I did the IIDA mentor program and I was paired with the rep that year and she knew I wanted to, wanted to design schools.

So she took me around to like, I think four or five firms that design schools. Um, and she did her presentation, but then gave me time so I got to meet the entire interiors team, um, which really kick started the process for me getting hired.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, and I feel like NAC was really a place, like, there is a sense of, like, fun to the culture and, like, a sense of, like, can you just, like, hang out? I don't know if, I'm sure I've told my interview story for NAC where Ron absolutely showed up and was like, here, drink this wine. I was like, what is happening? Right? But there, there is a sense of, like, we don't work together as [00:18:00] interior designers very often. but we use each other as kind of like a knowledge and a base point and like a way to grow and I think if you have to kind of fit into that.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Totally.

Kendra Shea: nicely just kind of showed up and was like, okay, we're doing this and we were like, cool, you can hang,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: you know, and almost, I think almost every firm is like that.

But because we don't work closely with other interiors people, you do when you start usually, but then they kind of just put you out on your own. And it's like you and a bunch of architects designing schools. Um, So there is that sense of like, we may not work together, but we need to like care and understand each other so that we can use that as kind of a base to say, hey, this is what we need as an interiors group.

And this is what will make all of our lives and all of our workflow better. what do you think? Helped you get that first job. I think we've talked a little bit, it was some networking, but was there other things kind of [00:19:00] post the networking or prior that you think kind of helped support them hiring you?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, You know I think

it was interesting. I went to the inner words, I think my second year in design school, and at that point I didn't know that it was even an option for me to do education design. And going into the inner words was such a great opportunity because I saw schools that were nominated. I could design schools.

Um, so because I knew that that's what I wanted to work on for my career, I made sure that my studio projects, um, really reflected that. So even if I didn't have a studio, that was, um, education based, I made sure that my project had some. education component to it. Um, yeah, like I really wanted my portfolio to do that work for me.

Kendra Shea: it's really smart.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah. , and then beyond that, like obviously networking, um, was a huge one. I got to work on the IIDA [00:20:00] bridge project when I was a student. That's kind of a public project that we do pro bono every few years. Um, and that was awesome because I was on a team with a bunch of other professionals. So I got to network.

, I got to know these professionals a lot better than I would just, you know, attending student events and meeting them once.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Like when a kid and a, you know, a student and a see a faces, there's a lot, right?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right.

Kendra Shea: That's, that's really good. I think, yeah, it's, I always say, I'm like, it's networking, I'm sorry.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Right.

Kendra Shea: you were really smart in knowing that that's where you wanted to go. And so you tailored, tailoring your portfolio and your work towards that.

was really smart. I think I kind of did something similar, but I didn't know that I, like, I wanted to do public space. I wasn't as like clear on wanting to do education the way you were. Um, so I kind of did the same thing where I forced all of my projects to be a public space as much as possible. Um, I [00:21:00] think there's like a residential exception, right?

You have this couple residential projects and a couple bathroom projects that like you're doing a personal bathroom And I was like, but gang toilets. I want to draw gang toilets. What are we talking about?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Which is funny because we don't design gang toilets very much anymore.

We now do single user restrooms for most of our projects.

Kendra Shea: I kind of love, like, switching to that like, we're not doing anything in public except washing our hands, so who cares, right?

I, I think that's, that's actually one of those few things that I see now and I'm like, yes! I, like, it's visible change in the profession and how we design public space that is very obvious. And I was even, where was I? Was I at SeaTac?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yep, SeaTac has a new one. Yeah,

Kendra Shea: And I was in there and I like the nerd I am was like, yeah, and I'm sure people were like, why is she so excited about these bathrooms?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right. And for people who don't know what I'm talking about with single user restrooms. So, um, it's not like the coffee shop restroom, right? Where it [00:22:00] has the, where it's a big ADA stall and it has the toilet and the sink. This is each toilet has its own room, um, without a sink. So some of them are accessible.

Some of them are smaller. Um, but it's, you know, full walls, full, Gyp-board walls that are tiled that have a real door on them, instead of the kind of toilet partitions that you see in ganged gendered. Yeah,

Kendra Shea: I think because I'm just curious and I, we'd need to talk more about budget. Is it affecting budgets? Like, because it is more Gyp and more tile

Kristen Petersen-Motan: so it, it kind of all washes out. It's pretty much the same price because, um, the one benefit or there's multiple benefits, but the benefit price wise as well. The Gyp and the tile are more expensive. You get to have fewer toilets. Yeah, so like you save on square footage

Kendra Shea: that's [00:23:00] big money savings right there. Okay.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: So it's. You know, pretty much the same price. Um, whether you do them ganged or not. Um, another big benefit is that it really helps with supervision because the bathroom is then very open to the hallway. Um, you have like a sink. That's like very visible. Um, like we've done them in schools where, , the schools have been like, we want to feel like we're walking through the restroom to get anywhere in the school. Constant adult these toilet rooms, whereas in a traditional gang restroom, you know, a lot of bullying can happen because kids aren't being supervised.

Kendra Shea: Yes. No, I love this. I think this is, that's so exciting. Because, yeah, I don't As somebody who doesn't, like, actively design, but, you know, does, does take design and turn it into, you know, takes concepts and turn it into buildable drawings, I see stuff, but I don't always know how the price stuff [00:24:00] is working out anymore because, boy, I did not enjoy budgeting.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right.

Kendra Shea: , so taking that out has been great, but I, I'm really glad to hear that something that is, I think, better for society and design in general is not, we don't have that, but it's costing us money kind of excuse in the way, and that brings me joy.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: and it also, yeah, the last benefit that I can really think of is, um, maintenance. So, if you have a male custodian, who's cleaning, like. The female bathroom, that's not an issue. Instead of shutting down an entire restroom with a bunch of toilets, he only has to shut down the one toilet that he's working in.

Kendra Shea: yes, oh, okay, look at this.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: Design actually making change, everybody.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right?

Kendra Shea: I feel like it's so rare, so when it happens, we have to call it out. Oh, that's awesome. I love talking toilets, truly. Bathrooms are one of my favorite things to talk about as a designer.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I mean, you get to have a lot of fun in bathrooms too, like design [00:25:00] wise, right? Like,

Kendra Shea: like often it's the only place you get to use tile and I have discovered in my life I'm a tile girly and I'm like, let's put tile everywhere And so like having the opportunity and pops of color. Let me tell you the number of white boring schools I've done but they're like you put color in the bathroom.

It's like great Guess I'm going to town

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. And then like that color thing, you know, knowing that you have a limited budget, so you can't do color on every wall. One fun thing that I've done on schools is doing color match grout. At least, you know, you're this huge, just neutral color. You're getting this little peekaboo of color in there.

Kendra Shea: Yes, uh, bring color in, in, in, in all ways. I'm such a maximalist in that way. I'm like, more color? More pattern? Is it too much? I don't think so.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Well, and I mostly design early learning and elementary school projects. So, um, young kids really love color. So I get to be [00:26:00] really playful with color, um, in a way that I wouldn't be able to if I was doing like higher ed, you know, that doesn't mean that you can't use color and

Kendra Shea: But it's different, like, like, especially higher, you know, higher ed or even once you hit the high school years, they want school colors that really you need to like show that school spirit. But there's something about the elementary schools. A, tiny toilets. Again, see?, bathrooms. I love tiny toilets.

But also the color and the fun and the sense of whimsy you get to bring in. I really, I didn't, I don't think any of my elementary school projects got finished, but the time I got to work on them was some of the most fun I've had.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Those are my favorite projects to work on, um, and then I was also certified to teach up to third grade from birth through third grade, and NAC has been really good about putting me on early learning and elementary school projects, um, because I've told them, like, I would really like to be able to use that background, um.

Kendra Shea: and [00:27:00] you have it. I mean, you have, you have a knowledge that most of us as designers don't have.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm

Kendra Shea: You know, maybe if you've done some teaching, or maybe you had a parent who's a teacher, but you came from like, understanding what it's like to run a classroom, to building those classrooms. And I think, That has, I would assume that has informed your designs.

Do you have any specific examples of that?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah! I mean, I think, you know thinking about multiple things

um, really a nerd when it comes to the size of kids. Um, I have one of my favorites on my, like, internet browser is the CDC growth charts. Um,

Kendra Shea: I love this!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I was when I'm trying to figure out like, okay, how high should this accent band of color be in the tile?

Um, or one time I had a book display in the library, um, that had like multiple different levels and I was like, okay, how high do I need to make each of these levels? Right? Like the 5th graders obviously are [00:28:00] going to be the tallest and then like thinking about like the smallest kindergarten or how, how does that,

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah, and what do they see from their eyeline? I used to like, like, like when I'd make a model, I'd put my model like two feet off the floor and put my, you know, the little eyes when you're in Enscape and every, like, I don't want to do 5'5 I don't care what the teachers see. I want to know what the little see and how that affects their view and their eye line.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: totally. And I mean, I remember when I was doing my first bachelors, multiple professors were like, do not hang kids artwork, you know, above their eye level, because like, they shouldn't have to look up to see their work. Right? Um, so that really influences, even when I'm thinking for wainscot, , I want these kindergarteners to be able to see their work that's pinned up.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah, it shouldn't be unreachable or unattainable, or I always try when I'm doing like kids accent models in classrooms, like, I want to put the tackable to the floor. [00:29:00] And they're like, that's, I'm like, don't care, put it to the floor. Please, like, why are we hiding things from the children and the people who make it, right?

So yeah,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. And the wainscot height, like, I will often do different heights at different grade levels. Um, I recently worked on a project where the 1st floor was all early learning and the 2nd floor was K 12. It was for homeschooled kids. Um, so the early learning height was real low. Um, so we had that wall protection, but the kids could still see their work pinned up.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. No, that's, I love that. It's a great example. So let's go back to kind of your first year in the job. When you started out, what were some of the first tasks that you were given as a designer?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I wasn't. A project team right away, um, a project team where, like, I was really working on the design of 1 building. , I was kind of helping out on project teams that were kind of wrapping [00:30:00] up design at that point. Um, and as well also kind of helping out with construction on another project. So, really early on, I did some detailing work for our higher ed project, , some detailing work for an elementary school.

, I remember that summer, um, doing, um, a wall covering, like, designing, um,

Kendra Shea: Nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: graphic wall covering that ended up a very similar version of what I designed ended up getting installed. , and then I think it was about Three months in that I started my first project. Um, and it was a middle school in southwestern Washington.

The third building the school district has ever had the first time the middle school has their own building.

Kendra Shea: Wow. One of those little rural towns.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: traffic down like one roundabout like very small town. , I started on the project, um, an early DD. , So didn't get to start [00:31:00] that project from the beginning. That's sometimes the case.

Sometimes I start on from the very beginning. And sometimes I do get brought in later. Um, and I was the only. Designer on that staffing just didn't end up working out where I could have another interior designer with me. Um, so I was able to learn a ton that 1st year working on that project. Yeah.

Kendra Shea: Um, and I will say, I think I remember from my time, it's a lot of like, we divvy up sets. So once design is kind of done and you get into production, we're often in charge of like, Elevations, the interesting ceiling stuff, but we're coordinating with the architects and a lot of other people on ceilings.

But I felt like it was always like, basic floor plans, furniture plans if we had them, and elevations were like, in our purview. 

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, and then detailing casework and [00:32:00] interior finishes.

There have been projects where I've done ceilings. Um, it just, it really depends on my availability and, , also like what I want to learn what I want to get out of a project too. That is definitely one of the things that, yeah, and furniture, you know, we often don't get to do furniture packages.

, a lot of districts will work individually with, um, furniture dealers to do their furniture packages. But furniture is still so important on all the projects we work on. Um, it's interesting. I've gotten onto projects before where, pretty junior architectural designers have laid out the furniture.

Um, and, It's like, well, okay, like this office doesn't meet any accessibility or there's no way for someone to get around this desk this classroom isn't gonna work , um, with this furniture layout. So

Kendra Shea: Like nobody's laying like furniture out that way, I don't know what you think is happening. Or the size is wrong, especially again with the littles, they'll put full [00:33:00] size desks in like kinder classrooms and you're like, oh no,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Or they'll

Kendra Shea: they sitting at tables.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Or they'll put desks for, you know, seven year olds in a middle school. Right. Like, um, that something it's Sure is. Which thing to wrap your head around

Kendra Shea: Yeah,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: and especially if you're in a time crunch and someone's like, okay, we need to get the furniture laid out for these DD user group meetings.

Um, the time might not get put into putting it in correctly.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I think that is definitely a downfall of the process sometimes, or the, the everything has to get done yesterday mentality of design is you lose, you almost make missteps not because anyone is doing anything wrong or on purpose is that you're moving so fast that somebody. The day before the meeting is throwing in furniture and doesn't know that there's actually a different standard for a middle school and a college or, [00:34:00] you know, higher ed.

So, yeah, that I, I have experienced that too, a couple of times where it was like, that's not right, but okay,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah,

Kendra Shea: sure.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I love when people will reach out to me and say, like, I'm doing furniture. What should I look for? , because I can point them in so many directions to give them great resources, right?

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. It's like, ask, just ask. Even if I'm not doing the work, just say, hey, can we have five minutes to chat through how you would approach this so that I'm not doubling up? Um, yeah. And understanding that interiors, like, we study furniture and where furniture goes. It isn't just like an afterthought.

It is when I'm creating a space, I'm thinking about the furniture that I may not have placed yet, but I'm thinking about what furniture is going in this sized room. 

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly, a cool furniture thing we

have worked out recently is 1 of the spaces. We're designing more of in schools. It's family rooms. These are rooms that are oftentimes, like, right off of the [00:35:00] main entry, maybe across from reception. Um, yeah, so they could be secure, right? Like, you can't go into the family room without going through reception and you can't get into the main school without going through reception.

All of that stuff. Um, place for the PTA to meet, um, for families to come fill out forms or meet with, um, any like counselors that might be working with families individually. Um, those spaces have been really cool.

Kendra Shea: I really like that we're incorporating that too and understanding that a school isn't just a place where students go, but it is often so many resources for families.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm.

Kendra Shea: in this country, um, it is a place where we need to like, yes, it is about teaching and educating, but we also need to make sure the community at large is supported.

You know, I've worked on a few that we put in shower rooms and places for those students

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm.

Kendra Shea: especially in the lower income areas where they can come and shower and [00:36:00] grab food if that happens to be their living circumstance. And, um, It was one of like the most proudest moments, like unseen moments in my working career.

It was just like I built this and I'm so proud that we got to do it. No one ever knows it was me. There's like, but it made me like happy inside to support these students I'll never know and never see. And it's, I think it's why we like public space.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right.

Kendra Shea: supporting community on a large scale that is super rewarding.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, for sure. Agreed. Yeah, it's it's so cool to get to, um, feel like you almost kind of become part of that community during the design process. Um, yeah. And to get to learn about what that community needs, what's important to that community. Um, and, you know, make sure the building serves them. Right. Um, I remember one project I worked on.

, it was a school where there's, I think, 18 different home languages spoken. [00:37:00] Um. It's,

Kendra Shea: I love it.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: cool. It was so cool to, you know, work with the community and try to incorporate things from all of these different cultures. And, um, one of the things we did was, , kind of went to the community with two different color palettes.

Um, one of them was, the biofilm. Inspired by the site and the was really colorful and playful, inspired by these mosaics that we salvaged and brought into their new building, um, that they had made for their old building and, the community was so excited about the salvaged. The story behind the salvaged mosaics and we ended up getting a lot more color than, you know, we would have if we had just gone to the staff.

Right. , and yeah, one of the things that the, um, one of the diversity and equity people from the district in a meeting was saying about this color palette in particular was like, these are the colors that these kids are used [00:38:00] to seeing at home. You know, a lot of these cultures don't have these like very calming colors in their home.

They might. But, um, a lot of them might have brighter, more playful colors at home. So if we want to make these kids feel at home in the school, bringing in this color is a great way to do that.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Oh, I love it.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: that's so wonderful. Um, I was gonna bring it back to something and I lost it, but that's okay. Boy. I was just like, nope, this is joyous. Um, I love it. Truly, I think it's one of the greatest parts of, of design. And I, I heard this, I'm like, they always tell us at school, you're going to make change, and blah, blah, blah, and I think it's a little bit, it's a lot of bullshit.

But, there is moments, especially when you do community design, where you, you do get to make change. I just never, it's never that big, like, life altering thing I feel like school talks about. It is these very small, subtle [00:39:00] moments, where you just get to say, hey, we could do this for the community, and it is driven by the community.

And it is. That is why we do it, not just because we want it to be pretty or we want to win awards,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Totally.

Kendra Shea: we like creating space that gets use.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Yeah. And that feels meaningful for the people who are in it. Right. Um, yeah. And that like gets people excited about this new. Like, awesome place in their neighborhood.

Kendra Shea: it also gives them a sense of ownership, right, that they are part of the process

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm.

Kendra Shea: are helping create their new community space, which they should be, right? Like, they should be informing what we do and why we make those decisions because it's the whole point, at least for me.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Yeah. I remember at that school that I was talking about. , One the earliest community meetings. We did pre covid in the gym at their old building. And, um, I was working the table where people could come up and draw what they wanted the new school to look like. [00:40:00] Um, and like, that was like, completely my.

Thing to do too. 'cause like a lot of kids were coming up, so I was talking to the kids about what they were drawing and like working with my background as an early childhood educator in that regard. But it, it was really cool to think about some of the drawings they drew and what we were able to do.

So like, um, like they, one kid said she wanted inclusive restrooms. And we now have single user restrooms in that building, right. Um, yeah, uh, kid wanted an open floor plan. That's what they had at their old building. It's like one of the few times I've seen a school have an open floor plan. And like, most people liked it.

Kendra Shea: Okay. Yeah, that is rare.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, we did a bunch of like operable glass partitions and sliding doors and all of these things to, um, help the classrooms feel more open and give them that flexibility to have a more open. Classroom when they wanted it, um, which was really cool to be able to [00:41:00] give that community

Kendra Shea: Yeah,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: that kind of experience, you know,

Kendra Shea: see, good feels about design. That's nice change.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: Sometimes I get a little like, but no, good feels. It's always nice. Um, so when, let's talk, we're going to go wrap back around a little bit. What surprised you the most when you first started working in the field?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Oh, that's a good question. Um, I think the pace at which it's different in school, I might take days to come up with this concept. Um, and in the field, sometimes it's like you're in a charrette. You're in the first charrette for your project. And, like, that's when the concept is. Chosen, you know, you can, like, build off of it then, but, like, it's much quicker and, like, you, you also just can't, you don't have the time, even if you're bringing a concept to a meeting, you don't have the time to spend, you know, three full days thinking about what you want that concept to be and really fleshing it [00:42:00] out.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Yeah. I think the speed with which certain things come together and then certain things slow down more is surprising. Like you're right, concept and early ideation is really fast and then CDs take forever.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yep.

Kendra Shea: Like that's months and months and months worth of work, like just getting the permit. Is months worth of work, and then another month's worth of work, you know, months and months and months to get to construction drawings.

So, you're right, the pace is totally different than in

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Totally.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, that's a really good one. What was the biggest hurdle you faced when starting your new job?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: um, I think being the, you know, the 1st project I had being the only interior designer on the project. That was a big hurdle for sure. And that's something that we're not doing anymore. Um,

Kendra Shea: That's good!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah. Um, so that was definitely a big hurdle to get. To get past, um, [00:43:00] you know, trying to learn how to do all these things.

And, you know, I had people I could go to for if I needed to ask a question, but I didn't have someone with me on the day to day. Um, yeah, I mean, I

Kendra Shea: was busy at that time because I was working with you and I, I was packed full of projects too, so it was tough,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, it was it was tough at the same time. I think it did make me stronger because it made me ask questions. Right. And I think that's like the best can do as a designer improve. Ask, um, you know, I have a couple of people I go to for questions about detailing. And, you know, I'll be like, this is the best way I could think of to detail this.

Can you think of another way? Um, there's one person that you and I have, I don't know if you ever worked with her, , at NAC, and like, she's done so much CA, and it's like, I could ask her, how will this look?

Kendra Shea: yeah, and she knows,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Is this the best way to detail [00:44:00] this or can you think of something else? Um, it's so helpful to have those people.

Kendra Shea: yeah, knowing who to go to, and I will say that's been the hardest part, doing projects on my own. Is, and I've, I've worked with architects, right, and you know, because again, inevitably I'm doing projects that I cannot stamp and seal because that's where we live. And so I was so thankful to have another pair of eyes just go, actually, if you did it like this, it'll make more sense.

I was like, thank you.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right?

Kendra Shea: Because I am detailing things that I understand how to detail, but having that second pair of eyes to say, well, if you approach it like this, you'll get a cleaner, better detail is so nice. But I also like. That you have different people you go to depending on what you need and knowing that it's it's and I love that about Firms a lot of the time are working with other people in like a close group as you can say I go to this person for this, I go to this person for this, and they, you know, and then I go to the third person for these other things, but you [00:45:00] know who is going to have the info you need and who's going to kind of Set you on the path without just spinning your wheels

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Totally. Yeah, it's really, really helpful. I was talking with another former coworker who's now, um, kind of doing some of his own projects. And, , he was saying the same thing that you're saying, like, it is really hard to not have someone to bounce ideas off of.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I was so thankful on my last big project when we when we did need an architect because it got so big that it And I was like, okay, actually, I am so thankful and I have other friends in the industry I could send things to who would review it, but having someone else on the project, just give it another once over and an architect, because there were some building details that I just wasn't as familiar with was, was really wonderful.

Yeah. It is. That's, that's a weird part when you're working on your own and you're small. Um, That's what I tell everybody. If you're going to start your own firm, do it with a partner so that you have someone else to check your details.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: [00:46:00] totally. And not just details, right? Just like anything,

Kendra Shea: like the stupid things that you miss and you're like, wow, I really forgot to hatch these five things for no reason, right? Like

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, yeah, you could have another set of eyes on your specs, or you could have, you know, quick design meetings with another person as you're trying to figure, you know, solve a problem.

Kendra Shea: yeah, because I definitely would have times where I'm like, I am so stuck and now I need to, you know, call a friend and be like, here's the, what I'm designing. Can you, thoughts, feelings? What am I missing? Yeah. No, it's that. That is an important part of what we do is. is working together to create. Uh, you do not design in a silo

Kristen Petersen-Motan: and I think that is just another big difference between the field and school.

Um, the only real collaboration I had was in like a 3D art class. I took, um, the rest of the time I was, you know, just collaborating with my professor, right? Like, that's very different than being in the field and having [00:47:00] a whole team of people that you get to collaborate with.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. We had a couple of group projects and I lucked out that I ended up doing designs with other people I enjoyed working with, but you're right. You're so much of school is just like you designing for yourself and then the teacher helping you or giving you corrections or whatever. That is so not real.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: That is, you know, and even once you get into the field too, like I feel like as a student you're like, is this okay? And in the field you're like, this is what I want to do. How do we get there? So it's like almost a totally different approach to what you're doing.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Totally.


[00:47:35] Marker - The Big Questions
---

Kendra Shea: Okay, well now we're going to move on to what I call the big questions. A little bit more serious and kind of a little bit more talking about, you know, where design is going and what we think, you know, about it as a whole. So the first one is, what do you think is the least understood part about being an interior designer?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, a good question. [00:48:00] And, um, Do you mean least understood to the general public or to other people in our industry?

Kendra Shea: you could go both ways, I think the general public is obviously the one I think I'm thinking of, but you are not wrong in that there, within our field, other people do not understand what we do. So I guess you could answer

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, yeah.

Kendra Shea: whatever way makes you happy.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Well, I think, you know, to the general public, right? Like, if I just, if someone asked me what I do on the street, , someone that I don't know, if I tell them I'm an interior designer and don't preface it with anything else, they're like, Oh, fun. You go to people's houses and help them get organized and pick up, pick out drapes.

Like, those are literally things people have said to me before. , so now I say I am a commercial designer and I designed schools. That takes care of a lot of it. I mean, people still will then call me a decorator in schools. Um,

Kendra Shea: like that's a teacher, actually.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right, [00:49:00] seriously. Um, so obviously the general public, there's a lot of education that still needs to happen with the general public.

I think, you know, obviously things like HGTV aren't doing us any favors. Um, I have never watched HGTV, so I couldn't tell you what they're doing, but I think people

Kendra Shea: I have. It's

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, yeah.

Kendra Shea: it is getting better. I was just recently visiting my mom and we were watching some of the like renovation neighborhood shows and they're doing a better job of like yeah it's an hour tv show but saying like they did this in x amount of weeks or like it's still obviously a fake timeline holy moly

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Right.

Kendra Shea: it's slowly getting better and it's yeah and a lot of it is still houses.

Which is, I'm fine with in some ways, because again, I'm like, I do something different, I like, I do public space, I do schools, I do offices, I do, right, like, behavioral health, so I, I kind of do the same thing as I preface, I'm a commercial [00:50:00] interior designer, and then these are the types of things I design, like, just to make it clear.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right. I also realized, too, that if I say I'm a commercial interior designer and I design schools, then it gives me, um, more credibility, but then it Gives these residential designers less credibility and like residential interior designers. They're not just picking out drapes, right? They're not just picking out paint colors.

They're doing a ton of work. That's really valuable that they need the education for to be able to do. So it does everyone a disservice when HGTV says, okay, this decoration thing is interior design.

Kendra Shea: I, I'll do it every season, Joanna Gaines, girl, I have problems. Um, they're gonna, I feel like almost every podcast at least once I'm like, and my frustration is, it's not that she doesn't do like beautiful decoration or that her husband is not an actual contractor, but girl has- [00:51:00] no woman. I shouldn't be rude that way.

Woman has. No actual background in interior design. She did not go to school. She did not study it. She just has really good taste.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: hmm.

Kendra Shea: And that is different. That is totally different than an interior designer who will space plan her kitchen so that it functions. Right? Like, yeah, I am with you on that one. Um, we need to make it clear to everyone that there is a difference and both residential and commercial are important but they are different, like, overlapping spheres.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah. And I think that, you know, um, the misunderstandings that architects tend to have, um, you know, it's interesting being in Seattle because a lot of my co workers who are architects went to UW and UW does not have an interiors program.

Kendra Shea: I forget this.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, I think, you know, people who have gone to universities that have interiors programs tend to interior design. [00:52:00] Um, Bellevue College actually has an interiors program because UW didn't want it anymore. That's the reason why Bellevue College has a bachelor's in interior design because UW didn't want it. They, at one point, they did have an interiors design program at University of Washington. So I think it does their students a real disservice, because like they're not getting to take classes with interior designers, um, you know, they're not getting to learn what interiors really are at the same degree that they would if interiors were right on campus with them.

Kendra Shea: And I'm, I've been talking to a few people over the last couple seasons where there is like there is There are schools where you start out like the first few years. It's like architecture, interiors, and like landscape, and sometimes others, right? So they're really getting you to understand that we work together.

But then you branch off as you go, and you kind of decide which way you want to go. And I think that is such a really smart way to approach it. [00:53:00] Because, I feel like, what is it, like 80 percent of the NCIDQ and the NCARB are the same? Right? So it's like, we should all be starting out with the same fundamentals.

And then as we find our discipline, like doctors or whatever, then you really start to figure out what that looks like as you specialize. Um, So yeah, that is a disservice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, I've looked at, you know, projects that some of my coworkers did in school, where they got to work with other disciplines, , collaboratively on their school projects. And it's like, it sounds so fun. And imagine if UW had interiors and interiors and architects, like architectural students and interior design students could work together on these projects.

Um, The understanding of what interior design

Kendra Shea: Well, and honestly, I feel like at the very least, Bellevue should connect with them and force them to, like, cross pollinate in a class and force them to do something together. I'm just making up syllabus over here.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, [00:54:00] it would be. Yeah, it would be great. Um, most of the architects I've worked with understand what interior designers like, okay, well, Kristen's doing the interior design who's doing the interior architecture and by interior architecture. They often mean who's doing like the ceilings or doors and it's like, well, Kristen can do that too.

Kendra Shea: yeah, I'm capable.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, um, it doesn't mean that I might have time to do that, but let's not call it something and say that I can't do it.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, or the, I feel like the separation of interior design and interior architecture is a weird thing because part of the design is the architecture, is where our doors are placed, and how the rooms flow, and circulation, and all of these things we study. So yeah, I mean, I, and ceilings are always funky because I actually like my Being able to place stuff on the ceiling, but that's like, as far [00:55:00] as I go, I want to put in the grid and I'll show you where I want my lights to be roughly, but after that point, please help me architects because it gets mushy, right?

And so that's one of those moments where it's like, use me, use my knowledge, let's talk about what we want it. To look and feel and function like, and then you help me lay that out the right way. But thinking that like it's something you couldn't do, or didn't know how to do is bonkers.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. And I also, I don't love when interior architecture gets brought up. Um, I think the background of interior architecture, like education programs. Um, I don't know if you know the background of this.

Kendra Shea: Not very well, so let's deep dive, let's do this

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: Now I'm intrested

Kristen Petersen-Motan: my, my understanding of it is they've, um, a lot of them have changed from interior design to interior architecture in the last 20 years.

And it's mainly just a marketing thing [00:56:00] because parents see their kids wanting to major in interior design. And they're like, I don't want you doing that HGTV thing.

Kendra Shea: Which we just said is not real.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: exactly. So like, why don't you become an architect instead? So these programs are changing their programs. Interior design to interior architecture, but you're not going to. Interior architect right? Like, you can't call yourself that unless you've passed your ARE's

Kendra Shea: And you're still, yeah, and you're still learning the same things. Like, you're still learning the same things if you

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, they're

Kendra Shea: design degree. It's not different.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: There's no, there's no difference. I've heard some people say there is it. It's really just program by program that it differs, right? Like some, yeah, because I can think of, yeah

Kendra Shea: no, I was gonna say there's just no two that are the same from my podcasting research.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, and I can think of interior architecture programs I've seen that are much more technical than my interior design degree, but I can also think [00:57:00] of some that are less technical than what I had. So it, it really just depends program by program.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, and I think that, that really wraps around to us as a profession, getting recognition, getting legislation. I have a question about that, even though I know your answer, um, but yeah, I think, you know, I guess I'll just move on to it because I think it's really smart. I mean, do you, do you think there is a need for a practice or title act for some sort of legislation?

Ha, ha,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: currently on the council with our chapter working on legislation for Washington state. Um, I mean, yeah.

Kendra Shea: I saw the consortium was signed. That was, I started that during my presidency and I was like, it took

Kristen Petersen-Motan: And I think we'll have a lobbyist starting soon. , but, I think they start in October, but I could be wrong

Kendra Shea: Oh, good. Again, things just, we're working towards, we're, [00:58:00] the chapter is working really hard with ASID and.

and interior designers in general to really push things forward right now. And even though I've been off for like six months, less, I don't even know, I can even see just in the postings and the little things that are happening, the movement going forward. So keep your eyes out, everybody. Things are happening.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, you know, I, I think there's are some of the only people at the table who don't have any kind of professional regulation in Washington state. , I believe there is now 29 states where there's some kind of legislation for interiors. , none of the, um, states that are within our chapter, the northern Pacific chapter, none of them have legislation.

Um, a few of us are going after it. At the same time, which is really exciting. Um, but nothing at the moment. Um, should I go into what legislation will mean for Washington state?[00:59:00] 

Kendra Shea: let's, yes, please.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: So the legislation that we're trying to pass is what IIDA has been trying to pass in each state now. Um, and that's legislation.

That will give us, , a title, , which will be something along the lines of like, um, registered commercial interior designer, as well as the ability to stamp and seal our own drawings. Um, you know, when we're thinking about equity in the industry interiors are by far the most female any of the professions in our industry, right?

I believe, um, more than 90 percent of NCIDQ holders in Washington State are female. Nine zero. Um, I believe it's 93%. 

Kendra Shea: Accurate. I mean, yep.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, it is a huge gender equity issue, , for women to not have this equal seat at the table, um, to professions that are that tend to be more men, not that architects are 100 percent men.

Right. I think architecture programs [01:00:00] now more women graduate from them than men.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, but how many become architects after the fact is the second statistic I'd love to hear.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: exactly. How many of them become architects? Um, how many of them become principals at their firms if they do become architects? Right. Um,

Kendra Shea: just take their NCIDQ and go straight to interiors?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: exactly. Um, one of the things that we've seen too, is that there are firms in Washington state where, um, to be The principal, you have to be a licensed professional. So there are people who, you know, have the title of a principal at their firm as interior designers. But if anything ever comes up to a vote, they have to leave the room.

Kendra Shea: Like, what

Kristen Petersen-Motan: like, are they really, yeah, are they really equal to those other people in that leadership group? Yeah.

Kendra Shea: no, actually, they're not, not even close. It's just, that's crazy, but somehow unsurprising.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. You know, and being able to stamp and seal drawings, it's [01:01:00] On the vast majority of projects I've worked on, it's, it's not going to change anything for my projects, right?

Like, it will change my title because I'll be able to become registered with the state. Um, I've worked on 1 project so far, but. Would be within the scope of interiors. I've worked on 2 TIs. The other TI I worked on, um, we added a door to an exterior balcony.

Kendra Shea: Ooh, fine.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. So, like, there was, there was plenty of other stuff that happened in that TI, but that, that door then changed the scope of the project.

Right? Like, um, if we had legislation, I wouldn't be able to stamp and seal. For it, because I'm an interior designer, so I wouldn't be able to touch the exterior of the building.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I think that's really important and I feel like there's so much I could deep dive. I plan to deep dive on this in the future so that we'll definitely be talking more, uh, legislation on other podcast episodes. Um, but thank you. I thank you for the really nice breakdown [01:02:00] because I think that's something I still struggle with to talk about.

Um, I know a lot of the high level stuff being president of the chapter, right? You're kind of in all of it, but. You being, I think, on the committee and really working hard, you just did a great, like, here's the basics, the straightforwards, which, good place to start. Um,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: And we're having an event next month. Um, and then

Kendra Shea: signed up already!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: awesome. We're, we're going to do a tour in November. I'll be leading it of one of my projects, um, chose a project that was publicly funded because we're inviting legislators to come and, it's going to be really cool for legislators to learn what it is designers do But to also see a project that they helped to fund.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited. I'll probably be there for that too. I love this junk. I may be a retired president, but I'm like, let's go to events! It's my favorite!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I'm super excited for that one.

Kendra Shea: Oh, I'm excited. And again, those are these, these small things that we, that I can see happening. We've been doing a lot of talking for years and [01:03:00] seeing the actual change in these little baby steps happening is so awesome.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, totally.

Kendra Shea: So, uh, you have your NCIDQ. Do you plan to get? Any certifications beyond that, LEED, WELL AP, Mindful Materials, whatever that looks like.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, well, Mindful Materials isn't a certification.

Kendra Shea: You're right! That is, um,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: it's um, Yeah, it's just like, it's like kind of an aggregate for, um, a bunch

Kendra Shea: think I was thinking of the Parsons one.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Oh, yeah, the Parsons one is cool. Um,

Kendra Shea: what that's called. It'll

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, I think the next certification I want to do LEED. Um, and after that, I want to do the, um, Living Futures, Accreditation the LFA that's the one I'm really interested in doing. Um, Because it's courses. It's not even a test, right? , it's a bunch of different course modules and you could choose which course modules you want to do, which is really interesting. I could do the [01:04:00] course modules that feel like they're the most interesting to me.

Um, and the most relevant to interiors. Um, yeah, I'm super excited about that one. That one is also much more expensive, but it's a lot cheaper. If you already have your LEED

Kendra Shea: ahaha, there it is. That's smart. It's doing the

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly. So you don't have to take as many of the classes if you already LEED.

Kendra Shea: that's really nice. Um. LEED is one of those funky ones for me, is that I believe in `sustainability, but it just feels like a checklist a lot of the time, and I

Kristen Petersen-Motan: it is a checklist

Kendra Shea: And I don't do big enough projects to make it worth my while as an independent designer.

But, um, I do know a lot in our, like, generation of designers who graduated around when you and I graduated, a lot of them got LEED in school.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of our classes

Kendra Shea: Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: or WELL, um. Mm You know. School's

across the nation. I've heard of plenty of them that do that. Um, Bellevue College is not [01:05:00] one of them. Um, yeah, I think, you know, lead is because it's a checklist, right? Unless you have a building that's like lead platinum. It's, it's not like

yeah, it's not like it's making a huge difference in terms of sustainability. I think most buildings right now are at least lead silver as it is. Um,

Kendra Shea: and it, isn't it, wasn't it really for the high, like the high rises, like the point of lead was for big buildings with a lot of mechanical and a lot of things happening to be more sustainable. It wasn't about the little buildings.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, I believe now they have like different breakdowns, um, with different kinds of projects. Um, don't quote me on that. But,

Kendra Shea: So it's fine, it's just assumptions. Do your research, look up LEED, people.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right. Um, but LFA, the Living Future Organization, like the Living Future, tend to look at sustainability from different lenses, right? Um, and I think they're much more holistic with how they look at [01:06:00] sustainability.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, and I think that's important, which wonderfully leads me to my next question. Do you think we're doing enough to push sustainability as a profession? And what can we do to, to kind of be more sustainable?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, I think, um, it's hard, right?

Kendra Shea: Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: sustainability is such a huge thing and it's something that, we need to have tackled like 10 years ago. Our industry obviously creates a ton of carbon and a ton of waste so much. Um, You know, I know someone from interface. One of their sustainability people is like, we, as designers have, like, we have, we can have some such a huge impact on sustainability that most people can never have.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. You have no choice. Like, we do our best, but no, it's, it's so easy to create waste in our, in our, in just the design process.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah. So I think looking at waste, I think, , looking at like [01:07:00] material ingredients, right? , like a lot of firms are like red list free now. Um, and they're like, no PVC. , there are products that are, , red list free that still have a ton of embodied carbon in them. Right? So the embodied carbon is the carbon that it takes to make that product from like, You know, getting that raw material to like getting it to your door.

Um, so, you know, if it's red list free, but is really high and embodied carbon, like, yeah, is that really a win? , or like, should you be looking at something that's, you know, you know, cutting down on those red list materials, but also cutting down on that embodied carbon. So maybe something that's bio based.

Kendra Shea: and I, I think we struggle because we're looking for just like. An easy way to know,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm.

Kendra Shea: as designers, we're so busy, we're working so fast. It's like, great, what is the easiest way to check things off the list?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right.

Kendra Shea: And to go beyond that is [01:08:00] really hard. Um, and I also think, working in schools, we live in this fun world where it's like, we want this school to last 30 to 50 years.

And you're like, whoa!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: worked, I've, I have one client who does 100 year buildings, um, which, you know, for interiors, there's some impact, right? Like, um, they want You know, better quality materials. Um, so like the, you know, tackable wall covering is going to be the stuff that is like self healing. Right? Um, and that stuff is also much more sustainable anyway, because it's like a cork linoleum.

Um, and like, they wanted, you know, wall paneling to be able to be easily removed so they could replace it whenever they needed to. And that was true of even the cork linoleum stuff that glued onto the glue. The MDF panels so that they could come off of the wall and they could, you know, if it gets damaged enough, they could throw it away and pop another one on.

Um, [01:09:00] I mean, most of that 100 year building looked at exterior detailing, which a coworker told me. It was like detailing a boat.

Kendra Shea: I don't envy that. This is why I do not do architecture. I do not like the envelope. It's not fun for me. No, thank you.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, but, um, you know, I think looking at building life cycle, um, you know, what's going to happen with to these products once they're you. You know, once the building gets torn down, or once it gets ripped out, um.

I'm part of a group at NAC who's like, looking to, um, kind of streamline how we specify materials and creating guidelines for our interior designers and our architects about specifying materials. And we're looking at it through, like, multiple lenses, right? Like, we're looking at the life cycle of it. Like, is it bio based?

Is it recyclable? Can it be recyclable? A chemical of it, like, at less materials in here. Um, and then, um, [01:10:00] the final 1 is that embodied carbon 1. Um, yeah,

Kendra Shea: Which I think is the biggest, what I'm hearing about right now is this, I right, the idea of embodied carbon and it's not, it's like what the, the, what is it, cradle to cradle, the life cycle is what matters. And I think, I'm hoping that way of thinking will help. Kind of over time. Because my thought is always like, Why are we building schools to last 50 years?

When the way children will be educated will probably be different in 10. So like, I'm always confused by that societal brain thought. Because that's not how my brain works. But I like that you guys are trying to find that balance of like, Okay, how do we make this building last? But what we're putting inside this building.

is not just like off gassing, ick. The poor youth.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right. But we also, you know, if we're tearing out a building after 10 or 15 ton of carbon, that was create that. You know, it doesn't go to anything [01:11:00] anymore. Um, I think it takes for the average building. I can't remember exactly. I want to say it's around 15 years for the embodied for the, um, energy usage, the EUI to reach the same amount of carbon that the embodied carbon created.

Kendra Shea: Fascinating.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: So, like, especially for TI projects, looking at embodied carbon has a huge impact on your project and on the carbon. In general, right? Like, not that we shouldn't look at, um, but like, we should be looking at both of them. Right? Yeah. They're both so crucial.

Kendra Shea: yeah. Well, as I deep dive more into sustainability, I might be reaching out to you more. Just FYI.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah,

Kendra Shea: Because I'm, I'm thinking about, I'm working on a deep dive series where we kind of take a subject and really talk about what is happening in the design world related to that.

And sustainability is on my list.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Definitely let know,

Called Informed, um, from [01:12:00] Habitable Futures or habitablefuture. org. Um, and it breaks down just different categories of, um, building materials and does like a red, yellow, green.

Kendra Shea: Love it.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um, so we've been using that as kind of our basis for what we're doing and then adding more to it.

Um, know, creating those. Recommendations from there, you know, and the other thing is with sustainability, like, just ask your reps questions, right? Like, um, I remember the PVC free type 2 wall coverings. The TPO wall coverings came out, , around the time that I graduated from design school and I was super interested in them and wanted to use them, but they were expensive and.

I just so happened to ask a rep, um, like maybe a year ago, cause I was like, I will never be able to use them. But I asked a rep like a year ago what the pricing was looking like on them now. And she was like, Oh, it's the same exact price. Now

Kendra Shea: Yes.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: have to be reaching out to your

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm.[01:13:00] 

Kristen Petersen-Motan: like that, or like carpet backing.

I wanted to use a backing, but figured that it would be more expensive than the one that can see contained PVC and reached out to the rep. And she was like, Nope, they cost the same price.

Kendra Shea: That's, I think that's a slow change we're seeing. We're seeing it more commercially versus like, um, like, you know, personal consumer products, but in the larger consumer and design we are seeing. The, the prices even out a little bit for some of those more base sustainability stuff, which is so nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: It's so nice. It's so nice. It's so great.

Kendra Shea: especially when you're working on public schools, and your levy's five years old, and prices have doubled since

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly. And you're like up against the budget from SD, you know, and having issues with budget. Um, it's been cool to be like, okay, well, I'm, I'm not using, you know, the type two wall covering that contains PVC anymore in my projects. Right. Like I used to at least do like the phthalate free [01:14:00] versions of it with PVC, but now I, I don't have to use the PVC anymore

Kendra Shea: yeah, that's really nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Even then you could have that conversation with the client.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I think it's always trying to have that conversation and some are on board and some are like, Nope, we can't afford that. And you just do your best.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, or like, we don't want to be a guinea pig and try something new and like, we're worried about that or whatever. It may be right.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah, definitely is client to client. All right, so we're gonna, we're gonna shift a little bit and we're going to talk a little bit post lockdown life. So we COVID, it's not over. But I would like to talk a little bit more about, um, as I, it's in quotes, to be fair, in my notes. Uh, how has your work life and balance changed since we've gotten back to normal?

Uh, post lockdown is really, I think, what I'm saying these days and trying to be conscious of, is that we are still in the pandemic, but we are no longer in lockdown

Kristen Petersen-Motan: [01:15:00] exactly. Thank you. Um, so I have some chronic illness issues, um, because of that. I just go into the office maybe once a week for a couple hours for meetings as I need to. Um, and my firm has been really supportive of that. Um, the other thing that's changed is I had a baby in 2023, and, I came back to work part time. Um, so I work 24 hours a week. So because of that, like, even if I was going into the office, right? I wouldn't be going in as much as someone who is working 40 hours a week.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I do really like that they have worked with you for a lot of this. And it's because I think, as I said earlier, you were so, I think you were so important to that firm and helping push them in ways that I could not. Um, and I think I'm glad that they are understanding. Like, here's the thing, guys.

We don't all have to work 40 plus hours a week to be good at our job, or excel at our job, just saying.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: [01:16:00] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, you know, not the first mom To work part time, um, thinking about most of our office in the last 10 years, they've all or not all, but a lot of them have been part time for at least some of the time. , and plenty of them are still part time. Um, so when I asked if I could go part time, I knew that, you know, at least we've had a lot of other people going part time.

Um, and they've been very supportive of that.

Kendra Shea: Yes, more firms do this.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: seriously, it's really nice because then I'm able to save on child care costs, but I'm also able to, you know, continue working. Whereas if I had to stop working, um, and then go back to work once my kid was older, um.

Kendra Shea: dumb, first of all. It's just a silly way to look at the universe.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, but it would also, it would hurt my career a lot, my earning potential quite a bit, right?

Like, it would be hard for me to jump back in to where I am

Kendra Shea: Especially in the design world. It's like, oh, you've been [01:17:00] gone. You're like, well, yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah,

Kendra Shea: it like, thinks that you've lost all your skills or your ability to like, think like a designer.

And like, that's not what. Having a baby means. So, but I appreciate that the firm is like, no, we're going to still support you in this, still keep you, you know, as part of this, um, without just being like, bye. So, that is, I think,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, I'm really appreciative for that. And I think that's one of the benefits to not being at like a huge firm. Um, I think it would be if you were. At a really large employer. I think it would be a lot harder to do

Kendra Shea: Oh yeah, the big names, the big, big names I feel like, NAC is like, you know, there's a couple of offices, but it isn't like Gensler or IA, right? One of those like big giants

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah. We're still part of the AIA large firm roundtable because we have more than like 200 people or 225, whatever that cut off is. But, um, yeah, like, we're, we're not huge.

Kendra Shea: and, and the, each [01:18:00] office is set up like its own little firm in some ways, like I, I cross pollinated all the time. I worked with Spokane a lot, but I felt like each, like, you know, Spokane, like each kind of section, LA, Spokane, Seattle, now, Ohio, whatever, Columbus, wherever you guys have now, there's a sense of like, we're a group, but we, we work together.

Yeah. You knew everybody in the office. You knew your, all your

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm.

Kendra Shea: Like the, the local community felt good. Even if I like kind of knew people in other offices.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. And I'd say, um, since the start of COVID, that's been one of the real benefits to everyone going and working online is that we've done a lot more cross office work than we ever did in the past.

I worked on a couple of projects, um, last year and this year for one school district where like half the team was from Seattle and half was from Columbus.

Um, it's, it's really cool to be able to do that.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. I'm telling you COVID has proved we can absolutely collaborate online.[01:19:00] 

Kristen Petersen-Motan: 1000%. Yeah.

Kendra Shea: We can't, like, in person is nice and important for certain things, but 90 percent of my job, I don't actually have to talk to anybody except for at the end of the day.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. And I mean, . Zoom, Zoom chat, and Miro. Those are, those make collaborating virtually so much easier,

Kendra Shea: I didn't use Pinterest before to do the same thing,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: right?

Kendra Shea: absolutely, I worked at firms where we would just start a collective Pinterest board. And instead, now it's like a paid program. It's actually more organized. And I can build a presentation. Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: now I don't have to go into InDesign whenever I'm putting together a presentation,

Kendra Shea: let me tell you, poor Creative Suite got screwed, it's fine, it was expensive.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, I still use InDesign, but I'm not using it, you

Kendra Shea: The way we were for everything, I mean, there was a time where you would collect off the internet and then bring everything into InDesign and you'd be like, of course, my favorite inspiration picture is this big.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: [01:20:00] right?

Kendra Shea: I have to figure out how to build my presentation. And Miro, just know I'm with you. I am here for all the collective collaboration tools.

And I mean, I started doing it in 2019. And I was like, y'all, we can do this. And I was so excited. I mean, COVID was awful. But at the end, I was like, look, see, I'm not crazy. We can collaborate.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: totally.

Kendra Shea: Um, so let's chat a little bit about diversity and I'm going to start with what does diversity in design mean to you?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: um, as a white woman, um,

Kendra Shea: Look, you're aware of that's what matters.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: having, having people from different backgrounds, um, and having people from different backgrounds be like equal players on a team, right? Like, if someone has a different background from me, but they're working under me, and Like, you know, their voice can't be heard as much because they're working under me [01:21:00] like they're not an equal part of the team.

And that's going to hurt, you know, how we design, , and how we work together. Um, I mean, it has to be just one of those things that's everywhere. Um,

Kendra Shea: Yeah. And we're, we're on a long road to that. Um, so the follow up is, what do you think are ways as designers we can bring more diversity into our profession? What do those steps look like to you?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I think outreach to students, right? Like letting students know that this is a profession that they can join. I think IIDA has been doing a great job with that. Um, you know, going into underserved neighborhoods

Kendra Shea: The Design World program? Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: it's such a cool program, and I'm so glad that they're doing that. , I think working with, um, NOMA

Kendra Shea: Mm

Kristen Petersen-Motan: is really important, too.

Um, I know that that's something we're doing as a, at a firm level. Um, that's the National Organization for Minority Architects, I believe. Um.[01:22:00] 

Kendra Shea: We need one for interior design. This is my thing, as I'm like, awesome sauce, we've got the architects covered, and people are often doing like, like interior, like tile companies will do it for architects, and I'm like, but interior designers are who you need to be pulling, because we're the ones, and so, no, I love that organization, but I'm like, where's the interior design version?

Like, who's, who's the sister company?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: you know, or if I don't know if interiors are involved in NOMA or

Kendra Shea: Right, but they should be if they're

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, they, they should be. Um, I would hope that they are, but again, I'm a white woman. So, like,

Kendra Shea: You're like, all I know is that I want

Kristen Petersen-Motan: on this is, yeah. Um. Yeah,

Kendra Shea: Yeah, but I think, I know you, and I know this because we're friends and I have spent time with you. You come from a place of being, of amplifying other voices that are not your own, especially like you're really good about that. You've always been very good about that. And you're just like awareness. You're like, I'm a white woman. [01:23:00] Yeah. Like is what it is. There's a lot of people in our profession that are not aware of that about themselves and don't amplify others in a way that you do that I think is really lovely and wonderful. So, that's my two cents.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: it takes work, right? And it takes education and it's constant work to, um, to make sure that you're, you're doing the work.

Kendra Shea: Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I don't, I'm not going to say that I'm doing the work and other people aren't,

Kendra Shea: Oh, of course.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: but just, you know, yeah,

Kendra Shea: right? And I think even you as a white woman didn't know this was a profession, so how is somebody from a very underserved place ever gonna know?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I mean, I got introduced to it because my white husband was like, you might be good at this. And I was like, oh, oh, I guess I'll try it, right?

So yeah, no, it's true. And I even think [01:24:00] like, You know, my first degree is an associate's in interior design from New York School of Interior Design, and I'm like, I think I was the only person of color. Maybe there was one or two others, but like, not enough for me to remember.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, definitely not enough. Um,

Kendra Shea: and that was, when did I graduate the first time?

2010. And then 2015, when I graduated the second time. I mean, even still, our community, there's like, 10 of us. We can all like, wave hi. So, yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, I think that's, you know, that's one side of the kind of decolonization of design is just bringing more people to the table and making sure that they're equal members at the table. Um. The other is like, let's change the way we're talking about things too, right? Like, when people start to use the word grandfather, I'm like, let's, let's say like legacy code or

Kendra Shea: I'm [01:25:00] also here for primary, primary and secondary bedroom. Primary. None of this master nonsense. We're done.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I was brought in as like a guest crit, um, for a student, um, for a class. And that's one of the things I brought up when a student said master bedroom. Um, like, I'm like, I hope she doesn't feel attacked by this, but I mean, I just said, you know, part of decolonizing design means that, you know, let's not call it a master bedroom.

Let's call it a primary bedroom. And luckily, the other um, the other professional what do you see? And she was like, oh yeah, I see primary suite. That's what I see all the time.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. I think it's knowing that language is important and a lot of, and a lot of what we do. Includes language, right? We are constantly labeling things and calling things out, and we, yeah, I love, I love that. And no, I'm, I'm always looking for ways to be like, wait, that is not the word we're using. So, yeah,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Or like. Yeah. When people are like, did you pick up those [01:26:00] red lines? I'll be like, yeah, I picked up those markups that you did.

Kendra Shea: Oh, markups instead of red lines! You're right, that's another good one. Okay, markups, markups, markups. That one's gonna take a bit for me.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Yep. And that's what that's what I always call them is if I'm in a meeting, I'll say, I marked up a set for you. I did some markups, whatever, you know, um,

Kendra Shea: No. And it's, it's like any language thing. It is, it is learning, like correcting yourself until it sticks

Kristen Petersen-Motan: exactly. It takes practice and you don't you don't have to be perfect to learn how to get it. Right. Learning. Um,

Kendra Shea: And it's just acknowledging like, Oh, I fucked that up again. And then really like trying again. No, truly.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly.

Kendra Shea: Please send me any of those you have because I'm now obsessed with

Kristen Petersen-Motan: 2020,

Kendra Shea: rewording things.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: NOMA had, like, published something like that. And I tried to find it a couple of years later and couldn't find it

Kendra Shea: Bummer.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: because, like, I would love to know [01:27:00] what's in our profession that we should.

Kendra Shea: Yeah,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Stay away from saying,

Kendra Shea: Yeah, because I think again, this is, this is a way to help to be more inclusive, right? Even if just in our language, we are inclusive of as many cultures and people's backgrounds as we can be, the more people are going to want to be, join it, join, join the interior design world and enjoy, you know, be a part of what we are.

And we're not going to get that if we just keep using language. To cut people out. I love that. 


[01:27:32] Marker -The Fun Stuff
---

Kendra Shea: Alright, we've gotten through the heavy stuff, and now it is the fun questions. These are mostly rapid fire, uh, off the top of your head. Uh, is there a designer, artist, creative, or firm whose work you are really into right now?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: can't think of anyone right now.

Kendra Shea: You're like, no. No, that's fair.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Honestly, I don't, [01:28:00] I don't look at a lot of like inspiration stuff much anymore. Um,

Kendra Shea: totally fine. Is

Kristen Petersen-Motan: like I do sometimes, but not a not as much as I used to.

Kendra Shea: Okay, alternatively, is there something you're reading or watching or doing that is just cool and neat and an artist would enjoy or a creative would enjoy?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I mean, I am getting outside far more than I used to because I have a toddler.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: him into the forest, especially like my favorite thing ever is when it rains, if it's raining

Kendra Shea: And the smell.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. And we live right by Seward Park. We're walking distance from Seward Park. So like, I'll take him into the forest when it's raining hard, put his little rain suit on him, um, and just explore the forest.

Talk about the different textures we're seeing, talk about the moss and the. That's obviously inspiring to me as a designer too, right? Apple light for textures. And, um,

Kendra Shea: [01:29:00] counts. That 1000 percent

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah.

Kendra Shea: Um, I agree. Being in nature and, or even just like, I've been, I flew recently and I was just looking down and I was like, I am so inspired by the ground.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right.

Kendra Shea: is literally just some lines and some ground and some dirt. And I am from up here. It is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: It reminds me of, um, I think a couple of manufacturers have done stuff that

Kendra Shea: Oh, a bunch,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: that, like

Kendra Shea: interface. You see it a lot in carpet.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, yeah, but like Fireclay Tile, yeah, Fireclay Tile had some of their hand painted stuff that,

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: picks up on that too, which is really cool. Not something that I would be able to afford on a project, but.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. It's just in my house. I put fireclay everywhere.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Nice. Well, I can afford fireclay on a project, just not the hand painted.

Kendra Shea: and mine were not the hand printed either because holy moly, those are expensive. Um, but man, they have good products,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: They really do. Really pretty stuff.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, but I, [01:30:00] I think that's a perfect example because sometimes, even the last recording I did, we were talking about inspiration doesn't necessarily come from like in school.

It's like, be inspired by this. And now I'm in school. inspired by, like, the ants crawling on my wall. I'm like, that is a cool pattern they've made today. Right? Like, things totally separate from the actual world of design can often be way more interesting and inspiring than another designer's building which you're like, that's freaking cool!

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right.

Kendra Shea: But how do you, right, as designers, how do we not just pull, like, same, same designs?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly. And I remember being in school and seeing a couple of classmates do something where that was like, I know what they were referencing. Like, I remember seeing that and this looks very similar to that. Um, and you don't want to be copying

Kendra Shea: and nothing is new, but also, you don't want to be like, direct copying. Yeah, it's, it's, it's the fine line of design. Yeah,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: come [01:31:00] from just living your life, right?

Like, there was one project I worked on that was an elementary school and we Created the concept really early on. that was our first design, just making conceptual models, before we even the site and how the building a site. Um, and we had heard from the client, you know, the things that were like, the sense of security, they wanted a space that felt warm and welcoming, um, and a place where kids could grow.

And I was like, yeah, That reminds me of a bird's nest, right? Like, it's this, like, secure place for, like, baby birds, and, like, as they get bigger, they get to explore more, and they finally leave the nest, like a fifth grader who goes off to middle school, um, and, like, for both the interior and the exterior, we chose the pallets together, um, And

Kendra Shea: must of been nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, yeah, it was great, um, but like the colors we chose were inspired by a hummingbird that, you know, had these colors that worked well.

Um, yeah, so like, [01:32:00] you know, these cool concepts that you can come up with, you're probably not going to come up with them reading a design magazine. Um, you're going to come up with them by living your life and the things that you're getting exposed to in your life.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. I read design magazines now to see how many people of color are in them. I'm like, Oh, white person, white person, black model, Asian

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right?

Kendra Shea: who's, no, that's my new kind of like weird nerdy thing where I'm like, okay, let me read this magazine and how many of the principles. Or designers are people of color.

And how many are just the models.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yep.

Kendra Shea: So that's my fun side project.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: That's a good side project to have.

Kendra Shea: out of curosity

Kristen Petersen-Motan: an important thing for us to be looking for,

Kendra Shea: Yeah, no, and I look for that. I mean, I don't spec much anymore, but it's something I look for in like. You know, furniture manufacturers and, and who is creating these designs, who is creating this furniture, who is [01:33:00] creating this very cool wall covering I'm using.

Like, is it the same five people that have been creating wall covers since before I was born? Or do we have a new influx of people from different backgrounds showing us what they can do? So, that's my, that's how I work my way towards diversity.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: Um,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: do it.

Kendra Shea: I'm just, I'm curious, you know, I want to see what those pyramids look like, those little principal pyramids.

I can't wait till they're all multi colored.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right. Well, and we know that like money tends to leave the black community a lot quicker

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: the white community. Money stays within white communities, um, a lot. So making sure that we're, you know, spending money

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm. It's important. It's super important. Yeah, absolutely. Do you have a favorite color? I like the color.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: you looked at my wardrobe,

Kendra Shea: Ha, ha,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: say black for sure. Um, I mean, I, I love wearing [01:34:00] black. Um, But in terms of color, I don't have a favorite or even least favorite

Kendra Shea: Okay, totally fair.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: I, I like color. I don't think there's any bad color. Um, it's just kind of how you're using the color, how it's being applied. Um, and you know, what other colors and textures rounding it.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, no, totally fair. Um, is there a color combo you avoid, or usually avoid, and why? Speaking of colors together.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, I'm trying to think like I used to think it would be red and green, but I've used red and green together. Um, but like using like a really yellowy green and like orangey red. So it doesn't

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, that's 100 percent it. There is also, who was it, there was somebody at NAC, I can't remember who it is, who hates orange and turquoise and I thought that was hilarious. [01:35:00] They're always like, it's 70s, , I can't remember, but it was so funny to me. And I was like, I love this color combo.

And they were like, no,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: There are certainly people who don't like teal because, you know, they remember it from the 80s. And I think not so much remembering it from the 80s, but remembering it going out of style.

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. We're being overused in the

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Exactly. Exactly.

Kendra Shea: back to that direction when they see the turquoise.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, but I, I love teal. Um, I mean, it's,

Kendra Shea: It's a good color.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: it, it's a really good color. And again, it's all about how you use it, right? Like, it's not like you're going to have a room in a school where every single wall is teal.

Kendra Shea: a hotel. Oh, it's so true. I mean, if we're to get nerdy about it, it's all about the hue and the chroma and the saturation. Honestly. Like, it sounds dumb, but it's true. It is all about how you pair them together.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah. Well, and I am like the nerd who looks at like a Sherwin Williams color [01:36:00] binder and I'm like, there aren't enough greens in here.

Kendra Shea: Same.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: give me more greens.

Kendra Shea: I struggle with that. I'm like, why are none of these? I want between this color and this color, even though they are next to each other on

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right?

Kendra Shea: I'm like, is there a middle ground I could find? No, I have that problem too. That's such a designer problem. We're like, we want this specific color

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: and I'm not going to pay for, um, Oh, who is it?

It's a. For a Pantone. No, thank

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right. No, no.

Kendra Shea: What programs do you use the most? So

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Revit. Revit. Definitely

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: some, you know. Like, Adobe,

Kendra Shea: Some InDesign,

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah, Some InDesign, Photoshop, um, but mostly Revit. And I feel like I'm using Photoshop a lot less than I used to just because of Enscape, right? Like,

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I was gonna

Kristen Petersen-Motan: you could have all of your entourage right there in the model, in your Revit model.

Kendra Shea: much faster.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah, yeah, like you still might do a [01:37:00] little bit of cleanup in Photoshop. It's

Kendra Shea: the way we used to, or even how much we did only in Photoshop before we had, or, you know, we'd sketch up and then throw that into Photoshop and texture it. So like so many less steps, which is really nice.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: really nice.

Kendra Shea: Uh, what is your favorite command in Revit?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Oh, gosh, um, maybe trim? I'm trying to think like, I create a tag for filter, um, and one for material tag, so those are ones I use a lot,

Kendra Shea: Oh yeah, especially when you're doing elevations and you're just blowing though

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Mm hmm.

Kendra Shea: trying to tag stuff, having shortcuts for that is a lifesaver.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Seriously.

Kendra Shea: no, that's really smart. Especially, like, as interiors, so much. It's funny, I feel like I don't spend a lot of time necessarily picking out, like, materials, because I pretty much can go and, like, pull.

But then it's the amount of time I spend tagging and placing materials, and where each [01:38:00] goes, that's where it gets weird and complicated.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: And then detailing everything and those transitions and tagging the details and

Kendra Shea: Uh huh. Tagging. I think the tagging shortcut is genius.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: yeah.

Kendra Shea: Um, all right, here's the last question. If you were to meet yourself just starting out in school, what advice would you give?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Um You know one thing I wish I had known

about was the organization, A4LE.

I would have been going to the tours while I was a student, and that would have been a great way for me to meet people who were designing schools. Um, You know, there was no way I could have known about that.

I think as a student, right? Um,

Kendra Shea: Is H4LE 

a part of that?

Kristen Petersen-Motan: A4LE. I don't know if H. Yeah. Yeah. It's

Kendra Shea: never remember.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: I do, you know, knowing that you wanted to go to schools, I do wonder or wish some of these like school or like, um, like hospitality does a really good job of talking to students who want to go into hotels [01:39:00] and. that in restaurants, but I feel like you're right, we could do a better job of reaching out to designers and being like, hey, you want to design schools, you want to do public space, here's who you should talk to, not just the general organizations.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Right. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's true of like, any student, right? Not necessarily if you want to design schools, but like, if you want to do a hospitality, get involved in NEWH, like, 

It's not necessarily something that I think a lot of students know exactly what they want to be doing.

And that's okay too. Like, if you're a student and you're like, well, I think this could be cool or this could be cool or this could be cool. Right? Like, that's okay too. You don't have to have it all figured out.

Kendra Shea: What it really means is you should just network. That's the, I swear to you, this extra special episode that I do every time, I swear to you, I'm like, just network. This is what I'm trying to get across.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah.

Kendra Shea: Because that's how you know, like I tried hospitality and was like, okay, not for me. And then I tried schools and I was like, oh, I like this way better.

Right. So it really is. Just finding, [01:40:00] you know, there's even like RDI, I know a lot of people joined that, and that was really good for them because they want to do retail. So, I, I, I think the general advice to yourself, just seek out more ways to talk to other designers doing different types of design.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Totally.

Kendra Shea: Yeah.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: But also for students just network as much as you

Kendra Shea: Oh my god. Network, network, network. It gets you an internship. It gets you a job. When you inevitably get fired or leave somewhere, it'll get you your next job. It is, I, it sounds so hokey and I think before I ever networked, I was like, it's garbage. And here I am like, no, it's actually the most important thing you do.

Um, cause I have seen people with mediocre portfolios. Get really good jobs and people with amazing portfolios not get hired because they just don't know the right people Or haven't been doing You know the networking long enough to really get get have somebody know that they're somebody they want to [01:41:00] hire because I swear to you Volunteering and showing up without getting paid and having a good attitude Gets you so far 

Kristen Petersen-Motan: student I met, um, right around the time I graduated who joined the student council, , for our campus center and, , had told me she was really interested in Schools later, I was like, I know this person. Um, and at first people, but, the rest of the team was like, we should get someone who's like, kind of like mid level. Um, it's at least 5 years of experience. And I was like, I know someone who would be a really great fit. So why don't we post that mid level job posting and an entry level 1 and see who we get.

And we ended up hiring the person I knew because. She was a really good fit, you know, she still had to interview and jump through all the hoops that everyone else did. But, um, you know, she was able to get her foot in the door because she knew she

Kendra Shea: and, and truly, you know, levels are so funky and interiors anyway because there aren't consistent from firm to firm.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: No. Yeah.

Kendra Shea: So it really [01:42:00] is looking for somebody who you know. Like, and I think it's even like job searching, look for something that, you know, you you'll enjoy and you can do well.

Like I, my brain works in a way that this works for me, I think we'll, we'll get you really far too. Right. And pursuing that. So really smart. Wow. That was my last question. So thank you so, so much for being a part of this and chatting with me today. I think we had a lot of good discussions.

Kristen Petersen-Motan: Yeah. Thank you. This was really fun.




[01:42:32] Marker - Outro
---

Kendra Shea: Design Over Drinks is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Kendra Shea. The podcast is also produced by Simon Shea Graphics and Cover Art by Tano design Music is by Qreepz. You can email us at DesignOverDrinksPod@gmail.com. You can support us on Patreon and follow us on most social media at Design Over Drinks Pod all one word and Blue Sky at Design Over Drinks.

Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:43:00]