Episode 301 with Ethan Doherty

In the first episode of the new season, Kendra talks with Ethan Doherty, an Environmental Graphics and Interior Designer who currently resides in Colorado. They chat about Ethan's schooling at Kansas State, and what led to his current role. We also touch on what school was like during lockdown, what Diversity in Design means and more!

Timestamps:

Welcome: 00:30

First non- drink related question: 02:35

Schooling: 07:09

Work Experience: 36:29

The Big Questions: 50:01

The Fun Stuff: 1:14:41

Show Notes:

Show notes, links, and images from this episode can be found on our website. 

Design Over Drinks is Hosted, and Edited by Kendra Shea

Produced by Kendra Shea and Simon Shea

Season 3 Graphics and Cover Art by Tano Design

Season 3 Music is by Qreepz

Email: DesignOverDrinksPod@gmail.com

Socials/ Patreon: @DesignOverDrinksPod

BlueSky: @DesignOverDrinks

Chapters

• 0:30 Welcome
• 2:35 First non-drink related question
• 7:09 Schooling
• 36:29 Work Experience
• 50:01 The Big Questions
• 1:14:41 The Fun Stuff
• 1:32:21 End Credits

Transcript

Episode 301 - Ethan Doherty
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[00:00:00] 


[00:00:10] Marker - Intro
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Kendra Shea: Hey everyone, welcome to Design Over Drinks. This is a podcast where we discuss what the hell interior designers actually do. I'm your host, Kendra Shea, a certified interior designer with 10 plus years working in residential and commercial design.

In this episode, I chat with Ethan Doherty, a designer whose path to interiors was not quite typical, plus some insight on his schooling at Kansas State.


[00:00:30] Marker - Interview Start
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Kendra Shea: Without any further ado, welcome Ethan.

Ethan Doherty: Thank you. I'm excited to be here

Kendra Shea: First and foremost, what are you drinking today? 

Ethan Doherty: Oh my goodness. Okay. So I was so excited to have a little like fall drink today, but I went into, went to the store and I tried to get my classic like pumpkin cold brew and they didn't have it. So 

Kendra Shea: No!

Ethan Doherty: had to [00:01:00] make my classic honey latte at home. And of course it's at a metrically large size. We're talking like wide mouth jar.

Kendra Shea: Yes.

Ethan Doherty: Um, So I'm just sippin on my little honey latte today. It's my go to.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I feel like, so, this is, lots of info about me. My birthday is tomorrow, and that is the last day of summer, so after tomorrow, I bet you your pumpkin lattes will be everywhere. So, that's, that's the thing, right? You're like right on that cusp between summer and fall, and you're like, am I getting, am I getting my pumpkin or not?

But I love this. So, it was honey, just honey iced.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, I just do, I have like a little Nespresso at home, and I make a couple shots, and whenever I draw the espresso, I just put, like, honey in the bottom of my little glass, and then like, warm it all up, and it's really sweet espresso, and then I pour it over milk.

Kendra Shea: Oh, that sounds really good, actually. I don't have an espresso machine, but it sounds really delicious. 

Ethan Doherty: It's delicious.

It is incredible, and it's like a nice pick me up, especially like in the [00:02:00] morning, I have not as large jars.

I have small ones that I take to work, and I'll make one of those and just drink them on my like 45 minute drive to Boulder. 

Kendra Shea: That is a bit of a, a trek you have.

Ethan Doherty: It's ridiculous and delicious.

Kendra Shea: Alright, well, and I'm drinking my classic drip coffee with cream and sugar. That's where I'm at today. Uh, we're actually, fun, more fun facts about me, we're under construction right now. So,

Ethan Doherty: Oh, oh my goodness.

Kendra Shea: it's just fast, easy, get out of the back of the house, they're doing our laundry room. So I was like, ugh, what can I do that's fast?

There's nothing complicated happening. It's as easy as possible.


[00:02:35] Marker - First Non Related Drink Question
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Kendra Shea: All right, so now that we've gotten past the drinks, here's, here's the first real question I've got for you. What inspired you to become an interior designer?

And I think you're a little different because you didn't have a straight path.

Ethan Doherty: It's, it's definitely been an interesting one. Um, It's curious because I never really, like, in my childhood or, like, growing up in high school or anything ever [00:03:00] imagined myself being a designer. Um, for a long, long time I wanted to go to culinary school, I wanted to learn the art of food and make really beautiful food.

I was a huge Food Network kid, used to watch, like, Sandra Lee's semi homemade cooking or whatever. Um, watched it with my mom on Saturday mornings. It was incredible. Um, but then one day I broke it to her and I was like, Hey, I want to be a chef. And she was like, you're never going to make it. Okay.

Kendra Shea: A hard life.

My partner was a chef for a while, so yeah. 

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, no, I can only imagine, especially after like, ooh, and The Bear came out, like watching The Bear.

I was like, I wouldn't have made it. I couldn't have done it. Um, but soon after I readjusted and I was like, okay, we're doing engineering. So I show up for K State engineering day. I see an architectural model that has been built with like balsa wood and mat board and all kinds of stuff and oh so classic once you're actually in it but at the time it was like [00:04:00] revolutionary and I stopped the engineers and I was like hey who made it look like this and they said oh it's the architects like those are the ones that decide the visuals the aesthetics of a building and then we kind of like put all the systems in and so I was like okay And then I promptly escorted my mom out of the engineering building and into the architecture building, we left engineering day.

And I told her right then and there that I was going to be a designer. I was like, this is it. I am so excited for it. Seeing all of the concept boards and project presentations hanging up. It was like, this is for me. Absolutely.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, so you went more the kind of architecture to interiors route, right? Okay.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, most definitely. It was our program at K State was broken up into different disciplines, but you all start together. So. In the beginning, I was convinced I was going to do architecture, but after a year of environmental design and design concepts [00:05:00] and vocabulary, I learned how important it was that the human scale is like a big thing for me.

And when you're designing a like skyscraper, the human scale doesn't really matter. And so, I was more interested in what people see, what people touch, what people experience at their own level. So, that's how I ended up in interiors.

Kendra Shea: Nice. Oh, that's really cool. And I think, I think a lot of us see that where we start, because I definitely, I was an HGTV kid, right? I was like, Oh, I'm going to do this. And then I was like, Oh, actually, it is way more complicated. It is a way slower process. And I don't want to do homes. I want to do anything but homes.

So I kind of went that same thing. I was like, Oh, I want to kind of veer this way. Um, So we're going to wrap back around up to your schooling in just a minute. Um, but before we get there, can you give me your general just philosophy on design and, and your kind of what drives you as a designer?

Ethan Doherty: Uh, I think It probably centers around people. Like I mentioned, [00:06:00] it's, it's very much about the person or the people experiencing a space. Um, and I think philosophy wise, I always think of design as a physical solution for something like a metaphysical or social or emotional. Issue or problem. Um, many times when someone comes to you looking for design solutions, they have an idea of what their expectation is, but it's an interior designers.

Um profession and expertise to be able to say, okay, this is the physical creation that we can manifest in order to get you to that solution to get you to that result. Um, so I think of it sort of as like a little problem solving every single day. It's, it's a little bit of like, what can we do here to make this better?

What can we do there to make that better? Um, and how can we make it beautiful all the same?

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I love that. Function and beauty. Right? Those, I think that is what goes hand in hand in design. Um, we, what is it, [00:07:00] form follows function, as we all say, but it's true. Like, it's one of those, those absolute truths of what we do, cliche or not.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, totally. I agree.


[00:07:09] Marker - Schooling
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Kendra Shea: Awesome. I love it. Okay. So you, uh, you went to Kansas State University for architecture planning and design and you got your five year master's, which is, which is, I feel like a master's is a lot, um, more than cause I have an associates and a bachelor's and that felt like a lot.

Ethan Doherty: Oh, yeah.

Kendra Shea: So I feel like your master's. Um, it was a big one. So I love that you all started out together. It sounds like you kind of gave, gave us a little bit of that info. Can you talk more about the kind of the large strokes of the program? Kind of what, what the setup was like for you? Because what I've learned in doing these interviews is that no two programs are the same.

Um, and it's really fascinating to see how each kind of teaches us design.

Ethan Doherty: Hmm. Mm hmm. No, it's I have [00:08:00] experienced many people after coming into the profession of their different schoolings and realizing how different it is than mine is. It's nuts. Um, and so I'm always preaching about how much I love the K State program just because of the structure that they create. Um, Mm hmm.

And you you start all together in environmental graphics or environmental design, not graphics. Um, and you make your way through your first year and then eventually after that, you have to choose your discipline. And so they've got all kinds of disciplines at K State where it's landscape architecture, architecture.

At the time, the other choice was interior architecture and product design. Um, but now that program has been split into specifically interior architecture and industrial.

Kendra Shea: Smart.

Ethan Doherty: So. It was very alluring to me or like exciting for me for this one discipline that you kind of got like a two for one. I was like, Ooh, I get to do [00:09:00] interiors and design products.

Okay. And so that's where I ended up. And the program was incredible because they teach you things about architecture and space all the way down to the scale of We did like hand sand bears and any other sort of like random small product. I did an air fryer in school, like so many weird things. 

Kendra Shea: School is there for the weird stuff, I swear. You're like, wow, okay.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, Exactly 

Kendra Shea: so love of furniture, right?

Ethan Doherty: So love of furniture in school. It was just one of those things that. Toward the end of my career, it totally changed my perspective in school, and I loved to be able to work at the smaller scale and work with something that people really do touch, feel, and move around. Um, and so then that's how I got past school into something more like environmental graphics and [00:10:00] experiential design.

Um, I thought it was just so much more immersive and conceptual and purposeful. Um, But moving into it in my profession, I had little to no education on experiences or environmental graphics. So that was quite the ride post school

Kendra Shea: Well, and in school, it's a blip, right? You get one class that's like, this is basic graphics and you're like, cool, that's one semester of, you know, and you get a hint of it and you're like, wait, do I want to do more? And I would love, I would love if schools gave us more time to do some of that and really explore the different aspects of design.

Because at least in my schooling, it was very much like, well, you're going to join a firm. And you're going to work at the firm as a designer, and that's the path you take. And I was like, wait, I don't have to do that path. I'd love more of that in school, right? Like, actually, you could be an experiential designer, because I probably would have gone that same route.

I love early stages. I love SD. Like, let's come up with a concept and talk about [00:11:00] it. So, um, I love to hear when people actually end up that way. Um, because I graduated in 2015, and it was still very much that, like, well, you'll work for a firm, and make money. You know, sit at your desk, and, boy, did I not like that.

Real quick, I was like, I hate this.

Ethan Doherty: I avoided it entirely. That's like the whole reason that I avoided classic architecture and interiors to start with was because I Completely denied the fact that I was going to be a Revit monkey. I was like, I'm, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to sit in a desk and like do Revit all day. That sounds grueling. 

Kendra Shea: It really is, and like, I would say the hardest part for me working as a designer, I was often siloed. So it was like, not only did I have to go do my own design, and then I talked to the architects about it, and then go back to my own design. You then had to do all the drawings, too. So you were just kind of like, your own little part that like, sometimes like, overlapped.

But [00:12:00] more often than not, you're just chilling by yourself, hoping people liked your design ideas while you sat in front of your computer. I was like, this is awful. 

Ethan Doherty: You're like six hours in, you're like, wait, what if nobody likes this? 

Kendra Shea: What if they hate this? Yeah, no, that's honestly, it's like the constant like fight or flight in my brain is do they hate this? 

Ethan Doherty: absolutely. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, no. So I love hearing that you're like, no, I didn't even go that path.

I just really kind of worked my way around. Um, so I think just a little bit of a recap about schooling, so you all start the same, and then you kind of have to choose, and you really went that like, you know, non traditional route. Um, is there, is there other things you, and I think that's really unique to, to Kansas, I haven't really heard.

There's some other programs where you start with architecture and landscape sometimes, but not the way it sounds, like you all start understanding you're like a, It requires all disciplines to [00:13:00] create design, not just us in our own little silo.

Ethan Doherty: Well, yeah, and so many like it taught me early on that within the different disciplines of design. There are four commonalities. There's vocabulary and space relationships and things that no matter where your designer or what you're designing, you can count on these things. And I go back to it all the time. I don't know if you all had the Ching books. 

Kendra Shea: Oh, behind me somewhere in this fuzzy thing. There's a Ching book back there.

Ethan Doherty: Like, I think about those books probably weekly. It's just often like, oh, what was that one form of spatial relations, like how they all are like clustered or whatever. And so I think about it all the time. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, or just like the block drawings, like the 2D block drawings where they're like, and this is this type of spatial connection. You're like, yes, those and the Munsell books just like stick in my head till the end of time. Yeah, no, but there are those things at the [00:14:00] time you're like, this is ridiculous.

But once you start working like in the field and with other designers, you're like, oh no, this is our shared language and we don't. We don't always realize that it does cross disciplines, not just architecture, but landscapes and graphics. So, that's really great. Um, is there something, do you feel like your program really prepared you for being in the workforce?

Like, what is kind of the thing that you came out going, oh, I am ready to work? 

Ethan Doherty: I would say school over prepared me for The concept of design, like the idea of like doing design, it's like, Oh my God, this is going to be so hard. You're going to have to figure out how to like put all these ideas together and create a concept to convince someone that this is the best idea or that it's like the sourceful [00:15:00] or the most effective or whatever.

I, I think I'm overly qualified for that portion of design, but then when it comes down to, like, me turning to a colleague every single day and being like. How in the world do I draw a detail for the way that this fits into this and this connects to that? Like I've never done that before. And it, it just always reminds me like I did five years of school and I don't know how to detail the way that a floor sticks to on top of another existing floor.

Like I don't know what products to use there. And so I just wish there was more of that. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I think that's, that's a really good way to put it, is school's great at like, here's what you're, like, your concepts, here's your design philosophy, here's what you believe. But, yeah, I remember the first time I drew a detail and I was like, what am I doing? Oh my god, somebody give me an example.

What, is there a bead? What do you mean there's a bead? What does this line stand for? Right? Like, there's three dotted lines. What is, what are these? What do they do? 

Ethan Doherty: they're all the same. 

Kendra Shea: [00:16:00] So there's so much of that, I feel like. Yeah, and they're like, no, this is, you know, exterior, and this is waterproofing, and I'm like, great, couldn't tell ya.

So you're right, I think I got some detail, I got cabinetry detailing, like nobody's business. I can detail cabinets left, right, and center, right. But the funny thing is, the moment you go into design, especially residential, you don't detail a cabinet. They literally have people for that.

Ethan Doherty: Mm. Yeah, that's someone else's job. Like, why are you worried about it?

Kendra Shea: Yeah, but like, I would have loved more commercial details, and more like, how different floorings, and now it's just a standard I pull from kind of the groups, and I don't even think about it anymore, but yeah, there's some of those just like, and did you get that you'll learn on the job, and you're like, no, I don't want to learn on the job, 

Ethan Doherty: Oh, all the time. And even still, like, I'll ask questions at work and they say things like, well, trial by fire. Like, good luck. And it's like, oh, [00:17:00] okay. 

Kendra Shea: know, okay, oh, I hope this isn't, 

Ethan Doherty: This is a thing that's being built. Like, people are gonna walk on this. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if I mess this up, this is like thousands of dollars that I'm in charge of and they're like, you'll figure it out. Like, will I? Will I, though?

Ethan Doherty: Who knows? 

Kendra Shea: It's true. Oh, that is really true. Yeah, I feel like 

the other thing school does is it's like the, the rush, the sense of like, Oh, you, you're going to, you don't know what you're doing, but you're just going to do it and you're going to do it fast and we'll see what happens. 

Ethan Doherty: Oh, yeah.

Kendra Shea: Uh, did you have a mentor in school?

Somebody who kind of really helped you through that process? 

Ethan Doherty: Um, I wouldn't say that I had like one single person I stuck with all along. Um, I think throughout school there were many times that we connected with different corporations or alumni or, um, even professors and retired professors would come to school and, You would have like short connections or short mentorship periods [00:18:00] with them.

Um, but overall, I would say, like, mentor wise, I had a few professors that I would always go to no matter if I was in their class or not at the time. Um. Many of which were some of my first year professors where you really just kind of go through it with them and like you hit you hit like that lowest point and they've seen you at your smallest and you're like, okay, I can tell you anything because you've seen the worst of it all.

Um, but yeah, I mean I didn't, I had a lot of friends that went and found mentors outside of school but I was never a person to do such a thing.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, it sounds like you really just kind of talked to who you needed to, depending on what advice you were looking for, which I think is a wonderful way to approach it. Was there? You know, following up with the schooling, was there kind of a built in mentorship? It sounded like alumni and others would come in and find ways to connect and talk with the students.

Was that something kind of K State [00:19:00] worked on and helped you guys with? Or was it just kind of the way it worked out?

Ethan Doherty: Oh, no, absolutely. Um, along with so I started K State right after they finished, um, their current renovation that they're operating in right now and post that renovation, they had this whole change of program where they were bringing in all kinds of people. They called them ECTOL lectures, um, but they brought in professionals and individuals.

Working in the field in order to present and show students what was going on, what the different availabilities of the profession were, and where you could go and what you could do. And even sometimes, well, many times those people were alumni of some sort, but even other than that, there were times that they bring in like a 10 year alumni, So from 10 years ago, they would bring someone in and like, only because they were an alumni, they would be like, what have you done in 10 years since you left K State?

[00:20:00] And there were many, many situations like that where they connected you with people outside of the school that had been there and they had that sort of alumni connection with you. And a lot of those times, they were handing out their information, it was like, Hey, like, message me, talk to me, if you need help, let me know.

Um, and many times I reached out to those people, but it was never something that evolved into or bloomed into an incredible relationship. It was a lot of times a good piece of advice and, you know, kind of moving on and taking that with me as I moved. So, it was great though.

Kendra Shea: nice. No, I think that's, I think I was more that way too. And I, again, I changed schools. I also went to the now defunct Art Institute, so that was a whole hot mess towards the end. It was really hard to have a mentor when there weren't teachers running around, to be fair. Um, but I really do, what I, what I, and I hear this about places like, uh, You know, K State or even a lot of the students I'll talk to went to WSU out here, Washington [00:21:00] State University, and they talk about the bringing in of alumni really kind of helps build that bridge between students and kind of older designers, and I love seeing that, um, in those more traditional schools.

Because I sure, I went to art school through and through. It's a very different type of, kind of, there, there isn't that sense of like future community the way a more traditional college has. So, I love seeing that because it's not my experience.

Ethan Doherty: Oh, it's so worth it. I mean, an alumni is how I got my first job, so it makes a huge difference to have connections like that.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. It does, no matter how you get them. It can be through, you know, our typical IIDA, ASID, or through alumni or other people I went to school with, I'll have someone to be like, Oh, you also went there? Awesome. And then it's how you get every job. Yeah, it's so funny. Uh, I'm like, Oh no, I have skills, but that's not what gets me jobs.

It's who I know. Like, I hate to say it, but if you don't have the [00:22:00] skills. 

Ethan Doherty: But I know this person, yeah.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, but I know this person and it's, they've got a good idea of me. So it's great. Yeah, no, it's true.

Uh, so you, let's see, so you graduated in 2022, which means you went through college during the, I think I'm, I'm calling it the lockdown cause we're still technically in the pandemic.

Ethan Doherty: Mm hmm. Absolutely.

Kendra Shea: Uh, so during lockdown, can you just briefly kind of touch on what schooling was like during that time when it was just. There was nowhere to go.

Ethan Doherty: My God. Yeah, I always think it's so interesting because I have this perfect cross section of two years before COVID hit, the year of COVID and then two years post lockdown. And it's, I was like looking back on this ago and thinking about it. I mean, my friends and I, It's absolutely terrible, but we're like, wow, we just want to do absolutely nothing again for once in a while.[00:23:00] 

Um, and so we're always like reflecting on the experience of COVID and school wise, it was nothing that I was expecting because two years pre COVID, I was giving every cell, every bit of energy I had to school. I was there every single day, all the time with like minimal amounts of sleep, just like giving it my all.

And then. the lockdown started and school started up afterwards. And it was kind of like, no one cared. Like there was, no one was giving as much as they were beforehand. No one was trying as hard because we were all going through this crazy experience that we were trying to like navigate on our own.

Kendra Shea: Yeah 

Ethan Doherty: and so post COVID I think, or like during and post, there was this change of attitude where I think everyone started to recognize that we were kind of [00:24:00] all human.

It's like, Oh, we could all die tomorrow. Who knows? So let's give ourselves a little bit more work life balance. Let's be a little bit more intentional about the time we spend on things or like excess time we spend on things. Like how far can you really take it before you're just. Spin in circles before you're just like bothering yourself over it.

Um, so overall, I think the like school COVID experience was, it was blissful because I didn't have to put as much in, but it was also really, really difficult because you had no one to work with. You weren't around people. You didn't have the collaboration or the, the person to turn to. It made it really hard and put out some bad designs at that time.

Like I just. It was horrible. Oh god, I don't even show the projects from that year.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. And I think, and you're not the only one, I've definitely talked to a few other [00:25:00] people who like graduated during lockdown and were like the thick of their college experience was like that. And you, they're the ones I think now that are like, I want to be in person, not because Of anything other than I spent so much time trying to collaborate virtually, and it was just the only option.

And we were all going through a very intense traumatic experience all at the same time. Um, so yeah, I think you really saw both sides of that. Uh, towards the second half, so kind of post when you're heading closer to 2022, did you see some of the seniors maybe kind of really step it back up again to be like, Okay, I got it.

Get out, get done, be ready. Or was it still just kind of like, all right, we'll see what happens 

Ethan Doherty: No, I think it was definitely a reality check, dude. Like there, there was, there was a point in time, my last year of college. So I've been there five years. I've worked [00:26:00] so hard, or at least what I thought was so hard during COVID, um, and I'm like, Doing my final thesis. I'm working on it. And then I turn around and I see these freshmen entering school that have like never been in college during a pandemic and they are cranking out work at like my level of expertise.

Kendra Shea: Oh man,

Ethan Doherty: And I was like, Whoa, I was like, we can no longer like lackluster this thing we got to put it, we got to turn it back on, we got to keep moving. And so I think right there at the end of school yeah it just started like getting intense again I mean like we went in, we went hard. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, well, and I also think it gave us that weird sense of like, okay, what we're doing is important, but if we miss a deadline, nobody dies, right? Like there's that balance that, that school and firms even a little bit are like, well, we have to get this done. And if not, they're losing money. I'm like, they're losing money, man.

But sure. Right. Like, oh, your emergency. Yeah.

Ethan Doherty: Yes. Yes.

It's [00:27:00] architecture,

Kendra Shea: Your emergency is not my emergency. Thank you very much. But even I've seen that too, like the, the like sophomores and juniors coming up, like post pandemic or kind of post lockdown, you were just like, that is amazing. Your work is like three times better than anything I've ever done.

And I spent a long time like hours. And I, and I wonder now that you say it, how much time was I spent spinning my wheels when I should have just been done and come back to it when I wasn't tired? And it wasn't 9 p. m. and I was over it, so I really think there's a, there's a learning sense there. 

Ethan Doherty: And you touch on one of my philosophies when you say that because I, toward the end of school, especially post pandemic, I was never one to stay. Late at night, I would get up very early in the morning, but I would never stay late at night. Because the sleep, and like, just refreshing, 

Kendra Shea: Even, so it was my doctor I want to say towards the end of my senior year and I was like, I'm tired all the time. And she was [00:28:00] like, here's the thing, go to bed before midnight. This was actually genius advice. She's like, always go to bed before midnight. Stop yourself 10:30, 11, do some calm down things, whatever you need.

But if you want to get up at 4am to work, go for it. If you want to get up at 6am to work. Go for it. But get yourself to bed asleep if you can by midnight so that your, my circadian rhythm kind of understood that I needed that sleep. Because I think I was also stressing myself out and then not sleeping because I was like, I have too much to do.

But the idea of putting myself to bed and waking up as early as I felt I needed to made, made it just give myself a little bit more sense of, of just sleep and regularity and like, Not feeling like I'm doing nothing because my brain is so tired and I'm like, I'm going to keep going. When there's no need to.

When your brain is fried. Like, I don't know why I think that more time is going to make it work better.

Ethan Doherty: There, it's, oh my god, it's so true, because I have a [00:29:00] perfect example of school where I spent, I think it was my second year, I spent one entire night drawing, like, these full boards, like, three or four boards worth of Mylar, that I drew everything in one night, 

Kendra Shea: Oh, geez, like full blown, like our big, like 24 by 36 insanity we work in. Geez.

Ethan Doherty: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I, I was on one that evening and I woke up the next morning and I was like, what did I do?

Like looking at the boards and I was like, these are horrific. This is not the level of like quality that I would be shooting for. This is not what I expected myself. And then soon after that had another project where I was like, okay, this time I was like, we're not staying up all night. We'll go to bed.

We'll come back in the morning and we will give, I will give myself like a crispy eight hours and whatever I can fit in that time, that's what gets done. But it's gonna be better work than if I stay up all night trying to do it.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. Or like, I'll work [00:30:00] late and I'll be like, why is this not working? And then I'll go to bed, I'll wake up and look at it and go, Oh, I was being an idiot. I was tired. And I think that too, was that, that shifted my brain that went, Oh. I really, like, if I'm tired and I'm having, struggling with something I know I can do, that means it's time to go to bed and I'll address it in the morning.

And nine times out of ten, I'm like, oh, I was just tired. That wasn't hard at all. That took me five minutes, like, 

Ethan Doherty: That wasn't a difficult solution. 

Kendra Shea: Geez, self, right? It's like, okay, no, it's true. And I think we need to learn that as a design industry is so often, it's like, well, we're losing money for the client. And I'm like, it's not my fault that they didn't, you know.

Put, put enough money in to account for design time, like, sorry, but like, your emergency is not my emergency and that was the hardest thing to learn, for sure. 

Ethan Doherty: Mm hmm. Oh, it's a big thing for me, especially like right now. I just started doing more classic interior stuff [00:31:00] and me transitioning and them thinking like, oh, he's a couple years into his profession. He's quick. But then the other side of it, me being like, I don't know how to do this stuff well anymore.

Like I'm so past this that I have to like come back and relearn it. So trying to get it done in the amount of time that they expect is, it's absurd. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, and I think that's true in all design, especially interiors and architecture. I have found that they're always like, and then we skip the deadlines anyway. More often than not, the deadline gets pushed. Like, what are we doing? So, no, I think, and I think that is going to be the really big change and shift, potentially, in, as like Gen Z comes up, because they're like, I'll do the work, but I'm not going to do it in a 70 hour work week.

Um, it's what I love them for because this millennial struggles real hard to put up those boundaries. Um, so I think that'll be interesting to see that kind of your emergency is not my emergency, uh, especially in interiors. [00:32:00] Uh, so let's talk a little bit about your first job. Uh, so you said you started strictly in environmental graphics.

Um, Can you, can you give me just a little bit of like what strict environmental graphics looks like? Like maybe what your day to day was, like a, what's a, what's a quick like what I did during the day? Because a lot of who I talk to is, we're, we're very interiors based and I'd love to hear a little bit of like the difference.

Ethan Doherty: Um, It's funny because 

Environmental graphics is like what it's been called and what many have called it for so long. But when you say environmental, people are like, Oh, so what's it have to do with like sustainability? And it's like, Oh, like, no, no, no, no, no, that's close, but no cigar. And so I would say I prefer to call it like experiential graphics or graphics in the environment or something like that.

Um, but environmental graphics [00:33:00] is. It's a lot of brand and identity in space. And so the first job that I had was at an organization called 3d identity here in Colorado, and they do incredible work. Um, but before I got my job, they asked me to do this small project of an environmental graphic because we had done nothing like it in school and they wanted to see my ability.

They were like, okay, can you do this? Um, but environmental graphics is. It's murals, it's art installations, it's brands on a wall, it's signs, it's like ADA signage, it, it spans so much of this like graphic piece of architecture, um, but I would say the strict part of it in the beginning of my career was I was only doing, um, like wall pieces, like one wall designs usually, um, [00:34:00] Sometimes it would stretch into like, you know, a wall that kind of turned the corner or a wall that came and like, jutted out or whatever.

Um, but most times it was just one small piece or one small design.

Kendra Shea: Are you often, I feel like in my brain, at least the way I process it is often like behind reception desks, that big piece of whatever logo design thing that happens. I feel like that's kind of a perfect example, right? Where it's like,

Ethan Doherty: I definitely did some of those. Yeah. Yeah. . 

Kendra Shea: you're like, so many, so many.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. And then it stretched into like one of the, for, I think the last few years, a big thing has been like timeline walls. Like everyone loves to put their story on a wall.

Kendra Shea: Everyone is doing them. Oh my goodness. Yes. And you have to have, especially I'm finding like schools really like it. And like big businesses who've been around for decades want everyone to know they've been around since like the [00:35:00] forties and here's the timeline of all the stuff we've done. Yeah. I can see a lot of that happening.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. And then imagine sourcing all of the black and white photos, and then you're like, I can't use this. Because if we blow it up to the size of a wall, it's gonna look like mush,

Kendra Shea: It's going to be garbage. That's I will say I've done some of that in my career, like just again, working for myself and then kind of in my different capacities. And that's the struggle. The hardest part is getting a file big enough to blow that sucker up on a wall because I want to be like, I love this tiny thing this big.

Can we make it the size of a wall? And you're like. No, no, I can't. No, I don't know how to do that. Or just like asking artists, I'm like, Hi, can I have the original of your thing? We'll pay you. But I need it so we can make it three times as big than what I can steal off the internet, right? Like I, that's so hard.

It is, that is, that is like the unsung part of what you do, is how do you get a [00:36:00] picture to fit the size they want for some big graphic wall. Or it's up a staircase. I feel like they're doing a lot of them up staircases these days. Like, there's a big staircase route, like, you know, central staircase. And they're like, let's put our timeline of our whole company up the staircase.

And you're like, oh my god. That's a lot. That's a lot. Ugh.

Ethan Doherty: You're like, that's a Polaroid. No, I cannot do that. . 


[00:36:29] Marker - Work Experience
---

Kendra Shea: Um, so that first job, it sounded like it wasn't that difficult. I mean, so I guess that's my question. How hard was it to kind of get that first job?

So it sounded like they had you do a little bit of a test, which makes sense, but were they one of many you'd reached out to? Was it a connection? What kind of led to that?

Ethan Doherty: Um, that job So, in our program, we were supposed to do internships, and I was unsuccessful in getting an internship. It was, it was post COVID, it was really difficult, and I had so much going on. [00:37:00] And, yeah, so Some of my classmates and friends had had internships, and then those turned into jobs, and it kind of continued on.

Myself, though, looking for a job, straight out of school, no experience. You're just, like, calling people, and you're like, Hey, do you want to teach someone everything? No? Okay, I'll call someone else. Um. So lots of just, like, cold reaching out. And then eventually we had at K State every year a design expo, like a, just a little, like, get together of all these industry, businesses, and corporations that would come together and just present who they were.

Um, and I met an alumni there. Her name was Jamie. She's absolutely incredible. And she, I saw her every single year for like three, maybe even four years at this design expo. Cause she had just graduated and [00:38:00] gone to 3DI. And I saw her every year and it'd be like, Hey, how are you? How are you doing? And it wasn't really an expertise or skill level thing that got me my position.

It was quite literally the fact that I had connected with her every single year. And stopped by her booth and said, hello. She knew who I was. She knew my personality. And eventually when it came down to it, I like called her and sent her an email and was like, Hey, I would love to work at 3D Identity with you.

Is that a possibility? There was no job posting. There was like nothing out there already, but she had like, let me know at one time during one of our expos that they were looking for a designer. And so immediately connected with her after the exposition, I was like, please, I will do anything. How can I convince you that this is what I'm like good for?

I can do this. And so that was when they took a piece of an existing project [00:39:00] and they gave me some of the like requirements and the boundaries. And at one point I was like, am I doing your work for you? I don't know what's going on here. But turns out it was just like a piece they had already designed and they wanted to see what I would do.

And um, they kind of just gave me like this tiny little weekend project and executed it. It was really fun. It was about, um, it was on one level of a floor, but the theme of the floor was Amsterdam. And so I did, I did a piece on the canals and all the houses on the canals. I knew literally nothing about Amsterdam before I started that project, and now it's like one of my number one places to visit.

Um, but I turned in that little tiny weekend project and they got back to me a few weeks later and they were like, yeah, let's do it. Mm.

Kendra Shea: Awesome. I kind of love that it wasn't like, because I feel like so many you get out of school and then you just start searching and you're like, well I hope somebody's hiring, but the fact that you reached out and said, look I want to work [00:40:00] for you, if there is a way you can find a space for me in your budget and your world right now.

Do it. And they did. And I like hearing that because I do think, again, schools often is like, well, you know, you'll just go to the job sites and meet people and hopefully so. But we don't have to do it that way. We can absolutely say, look, I can fill this void you didn't know you had. So let me do that. And I feel like that's exactly what you did.

Ethan Doherty: Oh yeah. It's. I have decided thus far in my short two and a little bit of something years in design that I'm carving my own path. Like I am no longer looking for jobs. I'm looking where I want to work and then proving to that company or that organization that I am worth their investment. I am something that they need.

Um, and that's how I've got both of my jobs so far. So it works out.

Kendra Shea: It's working. And I do think we need to share, and that's part of why I do this podcast, we need to [00:41:00] share the other ways we can make this degree work for us. You know, and it is, you don't have to work this one way with your design degree. You can, there's a whole bunch of other paths you can take and we just have to find them because I think I struggled with that for a long time.

I was like, well, I'm going to do, no, no. Nope, I hate it. 

Ethan Doherty: Mm. It's, it's just like a certain level of confidence that you have to have in your own design ability that's like, don't submit to what exists. Like be who, be the designer that you want to be and that will make you happy. That's what you will enjoy. So.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, for sure. And yeah, you have to carve your own path. Again, why I left firms is it was going to be another 10 years. So they were going to let me do the design I wanted to do. And I was like, nope, nope. I might be retired by then. I might be doing a whole different job by then. So let's not wait that long.

Ethan Doherty: Exactly. That's, that's where I'm at. Oh.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, [00:42:00] totally. That's, here I am podcasting four, five years later. Oh, that's so true. Um, so now, let's see, you are working at Stantec as an environmental experiential graphic designer. Um, so you kind of said you were laid off from the last one, which is why you bopped over to Stantec. Was that a smoothish transition?

Did you have a little bit of, or again, as you just said, did you just say, this is who I want to work for and I'm going to make it work?

Ethan Doherty: Oh my God, it was, it was upending, like turned my life around. I didn't know what was going on. It was insane. I never in a million years thought at my first job as a 24 year old that I would have to like figure it out. I would get laid off and there's no like playbook for that. You get laid off and then you go home that day.

And I had this like shutdown moment where I was [00:43:00] like, who do I ask about this? Like who can tell me what to do here? And it was crazy. Um, and I spent a lot of time just like kind of freaking out. There was probably a good two to three weeks that I was just, Well, I was also still getting paid. So I was, I was in, yeah, I was like, okay, I'm just going to have a little moment here where they've paid me out and I can just like sit and do nothing and reconvene with myself.

Um, but after sort of like the emotional relief of it all, like finally being like, okay, I'm good now, let's figure this out. Um, I started to realize things like I was in a brand new location where I knew absolutely no one. I had only been at my job for like eight or nine months. And so I knew very little of the design community.

Um, I didn't know much about like [00:44:00] the people that worked around me at other locations or other businesses. So there was no one I could really reach out to and be like, Hey, help me. Um, yeah. So I just started to build my network like a little piece of fungus. Like I was just talking to everyone. I would send cold emails and be like, Hey, I'm a young designer.

I just want to have coffee with you. I just want to chat about what you do and what your organization is all about. Um, and I started connecting. I started talking to different individuals across the board, people in furniture, people, um, at a dealership, people repping products, um, I just went across the board, just like scattershot, and eventually after a grueling, probably

Three months of having no job.

Kendra Shea: You were reaching out, you were networking like nobody's business, which is truly the trick.

Ethan Doherty: Yes. A little fungus me,

Kendra Shea: I love that descriptor. 

Ethan Doherty: um, getting [00:45:00] out of there and. Yeah, at the, at the end of the three months, it finally just, like, blew up. I, I talked to some individuals from IIDA that were connected with some of my co workers. 

Kendra Shea: When in doubt, I'm in an unofficial IIDA podcast, I swear.

Ethan Doherty: Oh, dude.

Kendra Shea: All day, every day.

Ethan Doherty: I, like, I, we could talk about it all you want because I'm VP of sponsorship now.

Kendra Shea: Oh, I, so I just finished my presidential year last year, so I'm in retirement as it were.

Ethan Doherty: Oh! The outgoing president. 

Kendra Shea: I, I did 10 years of volunteering for IIDA, I needed to step back a little bit. Yeah.

Ethan Doherty: Oh my goodness, I'm just now starting my journey, so I can't wait for the next ten years.

Kendra Shea: Oh, yes, and I love, so you're in Colorado, right? You're with the Rocky Mountain Group. I love them. I love them so much. They're amazing. 

Ethan Doherty: Yes.

They are absolutely incredible and one of my old co workers at 3D [00:46:00] Identity had connected me with someone they knew from the chapter and it wasn't anything big. It was kind of like, Hey, I know this person from Stantec, you can like connect with them. I know like they're a large organization, so maybe they would have something somewhere.

And so I had coffee with some of them and then it was probably like. At least two to three copy dates of different individuals from Stantec that I finally like worked my way in and I chatted with my now current boss, Bridget. She is Absolutely amazing. One of the nicest people I know. And she had coffee with me one day and was just asking me about like what my experience was and what I do and what I was good at.

And then eventually soon after it turned into like, okay, let's figure this out. We weren't looking for anyone, but you seem like an amazing candidate and you seem like someone who could really grow in our organization. So [00:47:00] let's carve you a spot. And it. It changed my path. It was absolutely incredible. Um, and it still does even to this day.

Like yesterday, all I could think about was how grateful I was to have the access I do at Stantec and being able to do the different range of projects that I do in my position is incredible. So very thankful.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, um, that is really great. And finding a place that you want to be and people you want to work with is so important. You know, I honestly, I'm friends with multiple people from the places I've worked. Right, like I'm sure the bosses were fine, but at the end of the day, it is the people, the friends I made, and the people I worked with that kept me there for the year and a half I'd stay in any place, because that was about my limit, be like, I'm done, get me out of here.

But it was the people, right? Or it was like, I love working on this project with this group of people, and I want to see it through, and then I'm going to peace out. So, you know, I totally see that. It's truly the people you work with, because a company's a [00:48:00] company. Right? There's 9, 000 places we could be doing design or doing our work.

But it's finding the people you want to spend your day with is really important.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, absolutely. I always my roommate and I have this conversation probably once a week and it's incredibly like negative and horrible. So take it with a grain of salt, but we always talk about like. If anything ever happened to you, no matter what happened to you, if you could no longer do your job, if you died, or if you like, fell extremely ill, your company would likely have your position up on a job board in two to three weeks.

Kendra Shea: I wouldn't care. Yeah. Yeah. 

Ethan Doherty: And so, you just have to find the spot you enjoy, not necessarily the company that you think is your like, forever. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah. And we don't live in that world. We don't work for a company for 30 years and then get a big, you know, like that's not. We can't grow. That's the other thing is, is we've learned, I think, [00:49:00] as at least this millennial generation is that like it is okay to move and it doesn't mean you're bad at your job or you shouldn't be there.

It just means it was not the place for you and that is totally okay. And I, I love that change that I'm seeing because I definitely, I have about a two year tolerance and I'm like, get me out, get me away. I'm unhappy. And I did that with. Both, all three of my design jobs before I started working for myself.

Um, but I really think that is, that is the thing to take away from what you just said.

It's not, The place you work for it is finding a place where you can go and enjoy your day, not be like, why the hell am I here? Right? And still, and not, I think the other side is not let it over consume you because that's the other thing we do as designers is we let it over. Like we, we can't stop doing our job.

And sometimes you have to stop doing your job. Um, so I love that you have found a good place and, and you took the being laid off as like, okay, how do I make it work for me? Right? So, [00:50:00] um, that makes me happy to hear.


[00:50:01] Marker - The Big Questions
---

Kendra Shea: All right. So I think we've really dived deep into your history. So now I'm going to ask what I call the big questions.

And these are a little bit more heavy. They talk about kind of the bigger concepts of design in our industry and where it's going. So, first one is, what do you think is the least understood part about being a designer? And maybe for you, not just interiors, but like, you know, experiential design. Like what, what is the kind of big misnomers people have?

Ethan Doherty: My goodness. Okay. Biggest thing that's like misunderstood. Hmm. I would have to say,

well, you might've stumped me with that one.

I would say the biggest thing that's misunderstood about being a designer collectively, [00:51:00] all designers is that. It's all like rainbows and lemonade, 

Kendra Shea: Right? 

Ethan Doherty: like everyone thinks it's so cute and fun and you get to like pick colors and put things together.

Kendra Shea: And we all just wear black and we walk around and we waft around and go, this should be different and this should be different. Oh, thank you. Again, this is why I started the podcast. Cause let's talk about the realities of our job, right? Like

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. And so there are, there are so many things that live underneath the surface of our end result. Like we do create beautiful, incredible, like. Physically altering things, things that seem impossible. But what it took to get there is crazy. The amount of time, the amount of learning, the amount of experimenting, there are still like to this day, [00:52:00] days in the office with my experiential team, where we, we order things online and like bring them into the office and we're just trying stuff.

Like, how does this cast onto that? How does this go to that? And so you really are kind of just. Shooting in the dark most of the time trying to figure things out or how things go together. What matches what works and then there's the entire side of it where, yeah, I want it to be this really beautiful and avant garde and expensive thing.

But the financials aren't going to work for that. Like, you can't do that. 

Kendra Shea: Budgeting! We 

budget so much. 

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. And so, it's just so hard to get yourself to do it over and over and over again when you know there's going to be that same hurdle every single time. You're going to run into this small checkpoint where you've got to pass every single test.

And those are the hard parts about design. It's, it's difficult. That's what it is.

Kendra Shea: [00:53:00] Yeah. It's I that's great because I agree so many people are like, oh you're a designer like great You get to just like look, let me tell you I first of all, I'm not a girl in all black unless I'm going to goth club, but also It is design is maybe like a small portion of all that it takes to get to the final result I spend more time doing drawings and in AutoCAD or Revit than I do picking materials.

And then half the materials I pick, they're like, that's too expensive. And I'm like, great, we're gonna VE the hell out of this project. And then what do I do, right? And then they're mad, they're like, it's all white! And I'm like, well, that's all we can afford. Because you didn't up your budget and color costs money.

Ethan Doherty: You 

can't afford pigment. What are you talking about?

Kendra Shea: You can't afford color. That's why everyone loves like, mid century modern and Scandinavian is because we can't afford the color.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, it's cheap. It's wood without a [00:54:00] finish. 

Kendra Shea: It's cheaper. Yeah, done. You have to replace it every five years, but it's cheaper to go in, right? Like, it's so true. And I I think that really is why, what drove me to start this, is it was like, I don't sweep around and just tell people what to do, like, I spend so much time doing the hard work and, and thinking through, like, how does this floor go to this floor?

Is there more than half an inch between them? Like, right? Like, 

Ethan Doherty: Exactly. 

Kendra Shea: So much, so many little things. So I think that was the excellent answer, like the most excellent way. I was like, Bill and Ted, the most excellent way to answer that. 

Ethan Doherty: Thank you. It's most excellent. 

Kendra Shea: Most excellent. I'm just going to Bill and Ted everything now, now that that's in my brain.

I think the next thing we're going to kind of touch on is [00:55:00] legislation. and practice acts, and I have not done my homework, and I can't remember what is happening in your state right now. But, do you, I think maybe overall, do you think there is need for a practice or a title act for interior designers, whether it's state by state, or if we can get ourselves federally?

What are your kind of feelings on legislation?

Ethan Doherty: So it's so funny you ask because there was actually a good portion of yesterday that I spent at an event for why people should take the NCIDQ.

Kendra Shea: Ha ha, yes! Ha ha, yes! 

Ethan Doherty: We just developed a new arm or piece of our IIDA chapter that is advocacy and they have taught me so so much about the practice act, the title act of it all, the legislation. Um, And I think it has like [00:56:00] totally changed my perspective on the why I should take it or why anyone should take it. Um, I think it's absolutely necessary.

And some of the things that I was mentioning yesterday at the event is like, yes, it seems difficult and Yes, it might not be necessary right now, but that's not why we're doing it. We're doing it so that in the future, people can put respect on the name of interior designers or interior architects. Um, there, there's a difference between people who do it, like, in a commercial or residential or professional setting.

Versus, like, the moms at home who call themselves interior designers and, like, change out their shiplap every month. Um, like, that's a hard line to walk, and when you, when you say you're an interior designer to someone, and their immediate response is like, Oh, so which. Do you think I should get [00:57:00] and it's like, well, yes, of course I can help you with that and I would love to and I think that's fantastic.

But I don't think you understand the like degree to which we are operating in an architectural setting where we're doing so much more than that. And Then it comes down to industry and it talks about you can talk about like architect versus interior designer. And where does that line get drawn? And where should, um, the respective an interior designer be according to architects and how should that relationship work?

Um, I think those are all absolutely things that would change if something like a title act goes through, um, or if it was something that was required for all states, if it was something that was so significantly large. Um, I think there's a lot of steps in between now and then, um, even talking with our IIDA, it's just, it's a, it's a staircase [00:58:00] and there's going to be a lot of steps just ever so slowly, and I think it's absolutely going to happen at some point if I'm involved at all, so. 

Kendra Shea: yeah, you can, the push has been really big and very clear, especially if you, like me, have been going to IIDA stuff for the last 10 years. But being on the presidential track, I was going to HQ all the time, and they really are, with Marci in there and signing of consortiums, I still can't say it, saved my life, um, throughout the different states.

Ethan Doherty: It's a hard word. 

Kendra Shea: I, I am seeing that momentum push, um, I'm really excited for it. I mean, You know, I have my NCIDQ, and I keep paying that 75 every year because I want my name to be up there. I want that number to be up there. Just be like, I may not be practicing in the same way I used to, but I have those skills. I have that knowledge.

I could bust out a drawing right now if I really needed to, you know. [00:59:00] So.

Ethan Doherty: And it's, it's so important because, like, even though you're not practicing classic commercial architecture, um, it's so important that you are still involved and you are still registered because it takes an army. One of the things that the advocacy team and I were talking about was just the importance of having, like, The, the people behind you, like there might be one person in the end that's saying this is important and we need to do this, but all that matters is when someone in a governmental or legislative position can look and be like, Oh, there is a large group behind this movement and it's meaningful.

It's not just one person who has an opinion. And so being a part of that movement is super, super integral to the process and After yesterday, I've decided that it really is time for me to start studying, which is horrible. 



Kendra Shea: Yes! 

Do it! [01:00:00] Do 

it. Uh, no, I always, so it is a lot of work. Like I. I studied like nobody's business. I was a flashcard queen. I read the book twice. I was writing notes because I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this once. Like I'm going to knock this sucker out. And honestly, I learned a lot.

Uh, there was a lot of stuff in it that it was like, you should learn this on the job. And I was like, that's funny. I'm learning it right here, right now via this textbook. So let's, let's hope they're right. But. But, it was, it's one of those things I can now proudly say I am a certified commercial interior designer.

I, you know, I have this, and it gives me, especially as an independent designer who works for herself, A, I can charge more, and B, it says I know what I'm talking about. And I didn't just like, decide my house was really pretty and I did a cute job with it, and now I'm going to design things till the end of time.

Um, it does give us that sense of who we are, and I think I also agree with like, [01:01:00] the more people who are in on it and working together, the better it'll be. I know like, Alaska has been trying for years, and part of it is their design contingency is so small. It, the legislators are like, ah, this isn't enough.

And so we're hoping that if Washington and Idaho and Oregon can bump it up, we can kind of spread across truly the Pacific Northwest and Alaska because it's as close as you'll get. It was PND. It was close, right? The gateway. What was that? Oh, I did the Seattle underground tour. And they're like the gateway to like Huron or whatever is up there.

And I laughed so hard. I was like, okay, not, let's ignore Canada. The gateway. We tried really hard to be like the gateway to Alaska. 

Ethan Doherty: Gateway.

Kendra Shea: But no, I really truly think it is the more of us that can say, Hey, this is important. And I, we need to be recognized for our knowledge and our skills and the health safety welfare that in the human scale, I think is really the important thing we need to [01:02:00] talk about.

Um, we'll get there. So I love that you're on the train. Please reach out to me if you have any questions. I'm here to support anyone getting their NCIDQ. I'm obsessed. I'm like, let's do it. Uh, no, it's a lot of work. But it is a lot of work that's worth it, is what I tell people. So, no, you aren't the only person I've talked to recently that was like, I don't know, and I was like, just do it.

Just get it done. You'll be fine. You have, you know, you have to, this is my advice to everyone. You have to think of it like it is their, it is their own special PM who likes things their own way, right? You never work with two project managers that like things the same way. It just is. And so you just think of the test as its own specific project manager who likes things done in a specific way.

And you just have to meet those needs.

Ethan Doherty: I love that perspective because they always talk about how like the NCIDQ is different than real life. Like there's ways you're going to answer it that's different than the way you would do it in normal practice. Um, but I love that, that you just imagine it as, you know, [01:03:00] like part of everything else, you know, it's just normal. 

Kendra Shea: I've worked with two PMs in the same office that have totally different standards, and you're like, sure, your office has the same standards, but the reality is, whoever your project manager is decides what they want it to look like, and you just have to follow whatever those rules are.

Just is. That's just like one of those realities of our job, where every firm is like, I have a standard, and you're like, sure you do. It's a rough standard that only half of it uses.

Ethan Doherty: You have, you have a, you've got a concept of a standard. That's what you have. That's what you have. 

Kendra Shea: Yes! Oh! That's so good! There's a concept of a sti Oh! I'm stealing that! That's so good! It's so true though! That is exactly the reality of what we do.

Ethan Doherty: That's all I'm saying. 

Kendra Shea: The NCIDQ was just a separate PM that I had to just do it their way. [01:04:00] And I passed! The first time. I mean I studied a lot, but I passed the first time. So I don't know if that helped. Oh, that's amazing. 

Uh, so we're going to talk a little bit more, a little bit about trends. And I, I would love to know what you think is driving certain trends in the industry. So kind of what you're seeing in design, do you think it is COVID like that post, you know, that like post, post pandemic, post lockdown world we're in?

Is it, You know, I think, just thinking about the shootings, is it safety, is it politics? Like, what do you think is kind of the big design driver in what we're seeing come out in the design world?

Ethan Doherty: Um, that is an incredible question because I think the examples you've gave. I have seen both in the last week. Like, there have been mentions of both. I think Maybe even just yesterday. Um, [01:05:00] for example, the first one of the COVID, we were doing a design for a client and they had originally asked for all of these collaboration and community spaces.

That's what they wanted. They were looking for that. And then when the project was presented, they retorted and they thought for a second and mentioned, you know, I don't think this is what we need, like now that we're seeing it and now that we see all these like community spaces and shared desking and like collaboration and bringing everyone back to the office.

And they were like, we need desks and offices for people that work there all the time, like that's what we need. And so it was like, oh, okay, so people are no longer attached to this idea of like. back to the office or like back to work. It's becoming more of a reality where you're starting to recognize real needs and like what's changing and what's becoming the new norm in that aspect.[01:06:00] 

Um, but then similarly, as a different, completely different project the other day, we were talking about how, um, we were moving certain functions of a space because we didn't want to create sitting ducks. And that was terrifying. Like that was the strangest conversation to have in the world. It was like, Why are we thinking about this?

Kendra Shea: Is it a firearms company? I have questions. Right? Like, 

Ethan Doherty: No, but it's a very, very large organization slash, like, lots of people are there all the time. And so, it was just frightening to think about it in that, like, realm, or like, have that consideration. Um, but I think overall, obviously it's always changing. I think there's always going to be Something at the forefront.

And I think it changes so often that it's hardly something that is [01:07:00] consistent. Um, very similar to any sort of like trend or media or like Tik Tok sound, like they don't last very long. Um, and so I think it's kind of wherever your project lands in that like period of history, like what's going on, what are, what is your client worried most about?

What are they most concerned about? Because. Before, they weren't afraid to make everyone sitting ducks in this, like, huge, open, great hall space. They didn't care about that, but now we do. And so, it's just a wild duck to chase to be able to, like, say, this is what's driving design right now, so. I have no idea what it's gonna be tomorrow.

Kendra Shea: Right? No, and I, I think that's, that's totally fair. Each, and each company, right, needs something different. But it is, like, I will say when I was doing schools, for instance, there's always a sense of, [01:08:00] like, safety, right? How do we keep the kids safe? How do we lock down strangers coming in and out? Um, which is very different than when you're doing, like, I don't know, literally anything else.

Ethan Doherty: A grocery store.

Kendra Shea: A grocery store where they're like, how do we get as many people through and in and out as fast and as You know, efficiently as possible. Although, grocery stores I go to, I'm like, who set this up? I'm so confused. I'm not allowed to go to the grocery store. I'm so annoyed every time.

Ethan Doherty: The grocery store across the street. I'm like, who, who even, like what? 

Kendra Shea: Oh, no, it stresses me out. Or like, a few years ago they opened the brand new Whole Foods and PCC at the same time. And I was going through both of them. And I was like, who? Ah! Uh, what I did find out is that PCC had terrible signage because they didn't use They, they didn't have an environmental graphics person on, so they were doing it separately from the design.

And I was like, well, that explains everything because there's no [01:09:00] signage and I hate it. And then once they put it in, it was lower than the, than the thing. So you couldn't see them from other aisles. It was a whole situation. I was like, so annoyed. I don't grocery shop. I was like, who designed this? Like, and so I found out from,

Ethan Doherty: come on. Consider the sign.

Kendra Shea: yeah, well I found out from a friend who was working for the company that designed it at the time, she's like, oh yeah, they didn't hire us to do graphics.

That was done separately. And I was like, that explains everything. Because it was so bad. There was like no signage, and it was poorly, like, placed. So. That's the lesson, kids. Have somebody who understands. Just do it all and have somebody who understands graphics. You know, it was like we would first shop in there and I was like, I don't know where anything is.

I assume there's some stuff in these freezers here because it's a freezer aisle. But like And it was open for like months without signage, which I thought was bonkers.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, that's, that's impossible. I still go to the same grocery store and I'm like, wait, where's [01:10:00] the spaghetti? Is it in, like, the foreign aisle? Or is it in, like, 

Kendra Shea: right? And you're like, I just want sesame oil. Why do I have to go to like this specific aisle when it should just be the rest of the condiments? Grocery. Look, I don't understand. Somebody explain to me why they lay out grocery stores the way they do, so that I can understand, because I hate it.

Ethan Doherty: Exactly. I would love to know, yeah. Just do it all. 

Kendra Shea: That's so true. Okay, back to our serious questions. Um, so this is, we're going to talk a little bit about diversity, and the first question in this is, what does diversity in design mean to you?

Ethan Doherty: Diversity is more than race for me. I think whenever that question or that word diversity is thrown around, I think there's a, there's a huge, like, immediate connection to, like, this is what it is. Everyone thinks a certain thing. [01:11:00] I went through a program in K State called the Leadership Program, and they taught so much about diversity, and being able to step into someone else's shoes, and being able to understand points of view, perspectives, life experiences, and where someone's coming from, and how to meet them where they are.

Um, and I think it, it's just made my thought process, So much different because now diversity or the idea of difference between people is something that I, I think about every single day. I think about where someone is coming from what their life experience might have been and how that's informing what they're doing right now.

Um, and I think classically, an interior design, there is a bit of like a datum where like most people are centered, and

Kendra Shea: Yeah, that's a nice way to put it. [01:12:00] They don't look like me, that's for sure. 

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, it's really hard, like, even, this is like, so, this is becoming less typical now I think, but even in my program as a male, like it was so strange to be in a space where I was The different I was a little bit.

Kendra Shea: You were a minority for one of the few times, yeah,

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, exactly. And so I was like, Whoa, hold up a second. Like what, what are we working with here?

Who are the people in this industry? What, what do they do and how are they striving to make a difference in that? Um, and I think it's incredibly important and it has to happen on all fronts, whether it's through IDA, through individual organizations, um, and even through individuals, especially those of us now.

Might have that evolving point of view, [01:13:00] something that's different than what it is now. And we see that it could be different. It's important for us to act upon it. And as we become leaders and higher up professionals in the organizations that we don't just kind of let that fall to the wayside, but we bring it with us and we make it something that.

That is a goal, that is a purpose of us being designers in our industry, and I think that's the only way that we can do it, is if we all work together forever. Unending,

Kendra Shea: Yeah, yeah, it's like, honestly, it's like legislation. Once you get it, you're not done. Right? It's the same thing. Once you get a diverse group of people, we're not done with the work. We need to get more diversity and more different point of views. Um, because you truly answered my second question, which was, how do we do this?

As designers, what do you think the steps are? And I think you said it really nicely, is we, we, we bring it with us. As we rise, as we do become the principals, and we do see [01:14:00] those leadership structures change from a pyramid of white dudes to a pyramid, hopefully, of people from male to female to somewhere in between, right?

Like, no matter how you identify. We want your point of view, and I think that, I love the, we'll bring it with us. I love that statement, right? Like, that I think is so important. We don't leave it when we go, because I think we've seen that for generations, right? It's like, the number of times we just, we, we almost get there, and then as soon as somebody hits that powerful position, they're like, well, never mind, and bring it with us.

I'm gonna hold that for a while. I really like that statement.

Ethan Doherty: Thank you. I appreciate it. 


[01:14:41] Marker - The Fun Questions
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Kendra Shea: All right. Well, so now that we've, we've touched on the tough stuff, we're going to do the fun questions. These should be really easy, loosey goosey, just, just like a first thing off the top of your head. Um, so first question, is there a designer, [01:15:00] artist, creative, or firm whose work you are really into right now and why?

Ethan Doherty: Ooh, right now that is, ugh, 

Kendra Shea: Who you jivin with? Who do you see on your, like, Instagram and you're like, Yes, that is awesome!

Ethan Doherty: Um, ooh. I don't know. 'cause like, one of my classics is like, the De Stijl movement as a whole is like something that I, I always am inspired by. I love. Love, love, love the concepts of the De Stijil movement and just like the philosophy of the simple and all that. Um, right now, my God, it changes all the time.

Kendra Shea: Okay, alright.

Ethan Doherty: And I think I far too often like muddle the like word creative, like I've been reading a lot lately. And I think,

Kendra Shea: look, I'm so inspired by books. 

Ethan Doherty: thank you. Thank you.

That's actually my thing now.

Kendra Shea: I'm such a reader. No, books, I have been all [01:16:00] up in the books lately. And I've been, I have a goal of 75 books this year and I am six books behind so I am digging through them right now. And there's something to be said about literature and how it can inspire. I just finished a book called Masquerade which is a Persephone myth told, um, from like, like a traditional African point of view.

So good. So good. I like burned through that book. It was so well written. And I was like, Oh my goodness. So, and it totally inspired me. I was like, Oh, I'm really into like golden daffodils. I didn't know where and I was even just like, the cover art was so beautiful, I kept going back to it and looking at it because it, it not only did it like, whoever the cover artist was, read the book.

I'm convinced because the way it was put together, I was like, oh no, this person understood this art. So, if there is a book that is inspiring, check. That counts in my mind, absolutely.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. Or like, even you mentioned cover art and now I'm thinking about how over like the last two weeks, I've had [01:17:00] this extreme obsession with anime and like watching the beauty of an anime and like just recently started watching for the first time ever Hunter Hunter, which I had no concept of what it was beforehand.

And I started watching it and. I hardly pay attention to the content because most of the time I'm just like, wow, someone drew that. Like, what?

Kendra Shea: Animation blows my mind still, even like, you know, I still look at like certain like old Disney classics and I'm like somebody drew that like with their hands and they turned it into something that I'm like, I still think about to this day, you know, no, you're totally right. I don't watch a lot of anime, but I've heard of Hunter x Hunter.

The one we've watched is, um, Way of the House Husband.

Ethan Doherty: I've never seen it.

Kendra Shea: It's so good, super clever. It's about a, an ex, um, He was like, you know, John Wick style. He was like, you know, an [01:18:00] ex. assassin or whatever and now it's just a house husband and does things house husbandy way but like of course it is an anime so he's you know he like chops things up and like and then they fly everywhere and it's beautiful and you're like yes but yeah i think i think we live i love i love art and creativity and i i always I'm inspired not just honestly, it's not other designers that inspire me more often than not it is a book I've read or a piece of art.

I've seen it. I'm like, well now I'm gonna create based off of that So I I love that you're like no just reading Just read a good book watch some anime Like what what is that?

Ethan Doherty: I'm like, interiors? What? Well, and people always are, they're always like, I don't have a hobby. They're like, I don't do anything other than like, watch TV. 

Kendra Shea: That's a hobby

Ethan Doherty: And I'm like, what TV do you watch? Like, what, what do you watch? Like, why does it inspire you? And why does it like push you to [01:19:00] be excited about something?

And if it is reality TV, get into it. Like, let me know.

Kendra Shea: We all need it. Sometimes I want to watch people scream at each other for no reason. But then at the same time, I'm re watching with my husband right now The Expanse, which is based off an amazing book series that I'm reading, and then it's so good. It's like, I never thought I'd be into sci fi, but this is the sci fi I'm into.

And then at the same time, we're watching, uh, Kevin Can F Himself. And it's brilliant because it is told from two points of view. So you have the comedy point of view and the dramatic point of view. And just talking about how perception and how each person's perception of their life is so different. And I'm just fast, like, even just the filming, because I'm a little bit of like a movie nerd and I love cinematography.

And a good, like, you give, I don't like horror unless it is a well, like, beautiful movie, then I will watch it. So, like, Suspiria is my perfect example of that. I hate horror, but that movie is beautiful. But I, [01:20:00] you know, but I'm inspired by it for many reasons. I'm an ex dancer, so I was like, yeah, modern dance is evil.

Like, you know, there's all this, but yeah, if I, if someone was like, design a house based off of that, I would be like, yes, let me just go to town, right? Like, don't give me another designer, give me some weird, abstract thing, and I will turn that. Into a design, and I feel like some of that is training. I don't know if you got it in school the way I did.

Where it was like, okay, take this other weird thing and turn it into design.

Ethan Doherty: absolutely. And I think that's like the basis of creativity because in school we always talked about at least my classmates and I, not necessarily our professors, but my classmates and I always talked about how there's nothing that's never been done before. Like something has been done somewhere, somehow, in some way.

Creativity is reimagining those things into something else. And so taking inspiration from a film or from an art piece and making it interior [01:21:00] design, like that's beautiful creativity to me. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, I agree. That, that is exactly what I strive to do. And even when I'm just making silly art or silly projects. I'm like, I am inspired by this rando thing and now I'm making fairy wings. Let's go. That's totally how my brain works.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, exactly. That's how I started with these, these snowboards back here that I did. It was like, I found these snowboards in the trash and I was like, I saw one triptych art piece one time and I'm going to make that on snowboards and I love it.

Kendra Shea: Yes, no, that's, that, actually I was looking at it earlier, it's such a cool piece and I, I love a good like separated triptych and you did a really good job with the shadows and the colors and it really, really feels like where you are to me, like I can feel that you are in Colorado. I can feel it and I love it.

Ethan Doherty: Thank you. You can feel it emanating out of this webcam. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah, see if, if I was in my background in the regular [01:22:00] part of my house, you'd feel very Pacific Northwest, like weird plants and like, you know, just where we live. It is. Oh, I love it. Uh, okay. Back to the fun questions. Do you have a favorite color?

Ethan Doherty: My favorite color is orange for sure. Like, uh,

it's like a, like a hot, toxic orange. That's just like in your face and you're on my water bottle. Like I love it.

Kendra Shea: You're like, give me orange. I love it. That's awesome. Do you have a least favorite color?

Ethan Doherty: Ooh. Probably like. I almost said brown, but I do love the color brown. I would say like a teal. I'm not a huge person of like a, an extreme teal. I like a deep blue or like a deep green, but not that weird teal hue in between.

Kendra Shea: Not a teal man.

Ethan Doherty: And it's almost always painted on like one of those [01:23:00] weird Marshall's decor pieces that's supposed to go in like a seashore bathroom, 

Kendra Shea: like bright one that's like bright and you see it with that bright purple all the time. Like that color combo like that.

Ethan Doherty: that color. Exactly. 

Kendra Shea: Yes, yes, it's like, they think it's like an ocean color, but you're like, unless we are in like Bali, no ocean is that color. 

Ethan Doherty: Exactly. I 

Kendra Shea: I totally know exactly what you're talking about. Do you have a color combo you usually avoid and why?

Ethan Doherty: I usually avoid something like a blue and a pink. I think though they are like very complementary pieces, I think anything in the realm of giving binary, not my thing.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, fair, no, that's.

Ethan Doherty: I love analogous. I love consistency, something that's kind of happening all in the same wavelength.

Kendra Shea: Mm hmm. Yeah. I love [01:24:00] that. 

Uh, do you use, what programs do you use? Like AutoCAD, Photoshop, Revit. What are, what are your kind of main bread and butter pieces?

Ethan Doherty: Um, it's definitely changed a little bit throughout the career. When I was doing heavy environmental graphics, it was almost entirely illustrator. I can run illustrator up and down backwards, forwards with my eyes closed. But since then it's adjusted into, um, I do a lot of Revit for my interior stuff. And if we're working on anything in the experiential studio, we do a lot of sketchup modeling.

It's very quick, very rough, drop in assets, make things look pretty and real when in reality it's kind of just like a fake plane with void behind it or something.

Kendra Shea: Yeah. And if you move your camera a little bit, you'll just see nothing. I think that's an industry secret right there. We're like, Oh, this is not built. This is just this one room. And that's all you're getting. And then the [01:25:00] client's like, can I have? And then the client's like, can I have this room too? And you're like, I didn't build that.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, that's exactly what we do.

Kendra Shea: No. Sorry. 

Ethan Doherty: You're touring a model.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, sure, you wanted elevation? I got that. But there is no 3D render of whatever you think you're seeing. 

Ethan Doherty: I can show you a planned view.

Kendra Shea: Oh, it's accurate. I love it.

Ethan Doherty: Exactly. Um, but other than that, we don't really use any AutoCAD. I know co workers that do, um, 

Kendra Shea: Okay, nice. But not in your role.

Ethan Doherty: not in my spot. That's mostly it.

Kendra Shea: Nice. Uh, What's your favorite command in illustrator? Like your shortcut. What do you live and die by?

Ethan Doherty: I'm trying to think. There was something I did the other day that my coworker was like blown away by. I don't know the shortcut of it because when I use Illustrator, I [01:26:00] use like the expert level layout that's like every button is available online.

But it's the function where you can, like, draw a bunch of shapes and then, like, void the one in front or the one behind and, um, or, like, meld shapes and put them all together. I use it religiously for everything. 

Kendra Shea: Okay. Yeah. I think that's like a A graphic designer thing too. I, what was I, oh, sometimes on TikTok I get like the thing where the office is like, Okay, we have three graphic designers. How do each of you draw a heart? And each one approaches it differently. And I feel like half of them do the thing where they put the two shapes on top of each other and then like one disappears.

And so I think that's what you're talking about. I'm like, I know it! Because I keep seeing that all over TikTok. 

Ethan Doherty: I know exactly what video you're talking about. I saw the same one and I was like, that's me. 

Kendra Shea: I just, I love that because that is such a great descriptor of designers and any [01:27:00] sort of creative, right? You give us a problem, or you give us a room, and no two designers will make the room the same. 

Ethan Doherty: Absolutely.

Kendra Shea: Doesn't matter where, how close your background is, no two designers create the same space. And I think that's a perfect example, as I remember watching that being looked at.

So, of course, everyone makes a heart a different way. There's no way. We do it the same and I love that video. It was wonderful. I'm glad you saw it, too. I'm gonna have to go dig it up to put it. Of course now I'm gonna have to go find it to go throw in my show notes later so that people know what we're referencing.

Ethan Doherty: This is what we were talking about. Go find it on TikTok.

Kendra Shea: Or Instagram in three weeks. Just give it time to filter through.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah, absolutely. By the time this comes out, just go look at Instagram a little bit. It'll pop up eventually.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, that's true because we're not getting, this will be way later and you know, everyone's going to be like, you filmed this in September and be like, correct. It is now January. It is what it is, everyone. This is how the timeline goes. 

Ethan Doherty: That is life. Thank you very much.

Kendra Shea: Yeah, so true. I can't imagine having to [01:28:00] record and get them out weekly.

Ethan Doherty: How am I supposed to do that?

Kendra Shea: I don't, that's not my schedule.

I'd have to really have a good like schedule and there's no way I have a good schedule at this point. I'm still like getting people in, which I would tell you right now, the hardest part of doing an interview podcast is getting scheduling people. 

Ethan Doherty: I can only imagine.

Kendra Shea: I love doing it, but yeah, but everyone's busy, right? So there's that.

Alrighty. So our last question, if you were to meet yourself just starting out in school, what advice would you give?

Ethan Doherty: My precious, my dear boy, my, my, my, your dear son, you have so much to learn. Um, I think throughout my schooling and even my professional life thus far, I have realized how important it is. like I said in the very beginning, to carve your own path, do your own thing. Um, I think especially in school, there is a [01:29:00] lot of, there's a lot of weight that feels like you should do a project a certain way, or you should design a specific way, or you should do a certain process.

Um, and I think that's all, it's all BS, like just do what calls to you. And that is what makes you a unique creative. And that's what makes you a powerful creative. Um, so just live your truth, do your thing, and if someone gives you grief about it, take it as constructive feedback, don't snap on it, like Like people have opinions, you're going to run into things, but take it as constructive feedback and then, you know, address your trajectory and keep going.

So just don't give up, keep it up and be yourself. 

Kendra Shea: Yes, I think that's excellent advice for any student because you do get a lot of just you school is a lot of well you should do it this way and you're like well why and sometimes you get a really good reason and you're like [01:30:00] okay that makes sense and sometimes they're like we've been doing it that way forever and you're like okay um.

And we don't necessarily need to, and I think that's really, really smart. Take those with a grain of salt, apply what you need to for yourself, but it doesn't mean you have to take it in full truth. And that's really hard as a student, so I think that's excellent advice.

Ethan Doherty: One of my favorite projects ever of all time is one that I will live and die by. And we made a mushroom chair and we got so much grief for it. They were like, why would you do that? 

Kendra Shea: Okay, can you send me the mushroom chair? Do you still have pictures? I need to see the mushroom chair. I'm obsessed already. 

Ethan Doherty: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, totally.

Kendra Shea: I don't even know what it looks like. I'm like, mushroom chair? I'm actually following some random person on the internet that just makes weird chairs. And so sometimes it's like, A baseball, mit, and sometimes it's like a, there was a, some more one and I was like, what is this?

They're the [01:31:00] coolest freaking things. Are they functional? Kind of. But they, they are so cool. Art-wise, I like, I just want a place to put them in my house so I can be like, here's my weird pencil and paper chair, so I wanna see that. Will you please send that to me? 

Ethan Doherty: Absolutely, I will.

Kendra Shea: Because I just want to see it. I'm such a nerd, I'm like, you made a mushroom chair?

That's the coolest thing ever. 

Ethan Doherty: It is, and I will, I will be proud of it forever. 

Kendra Shea: So, trust your gut, cause, yeah, cause these nerds, nerds like me, Ren Faire enthusiasts like me, we are here for the mushroom chair.

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. Your something is everyone else's, or someone else's something. Whatever that saying is. Like, just be you, and someone will enjoy it, I promise. 

Kendra Shea: Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so much. 

Ethan Doherty: Thank you.

Kendra Shea: This was a wonderful conversation and I loved your insight. And also I love I have a new school, so I've got another school to add to the roster of different programs people can kind of learn [01:32:00] about this way, because that's the other thing I'm trying to do a little bit is, is.

If you're looking to design school, these are all the different programs, and they each do something different, and so you need to find the one that's going to fulfill your needs as a designer or a creative.

Ethan Doherty: Well, I'm so happy I could represent K State. Go Cats, dude! Go Cats! On a podcast level, go Cats! 


[01:32:20] Marker -Outro
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Kendra Shea: Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Design Over Drinks is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Kendra Shea. The podcast is also produced by Simon Shea Graphics and Cover Art by Tano design Music is by Qreepz. You can email us at Design Over Drinks pod@gmail.com. You can support us on Patreon and follow us on most social media at Design Over Drinks Pod all one word and Blue Sky at Design Over Drinks

find us wherever you get your podcasts. 


[01:32:52] Marker - Tag
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Kendra Shea: This was a wonderful conversation, um, and I actually hope we get to meet in person someday, then I'll be back out to the Rocky Mountain [01:33:00] chapter in the future. 

Ethan Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, that would be incredible.